Oh My Stars and Garters! Hank McCoy, the Beast Appreciation 2024!

[Mungho]

thats not the impression Im getting at all.

With that said, I get your frustrations which is why I was always opposed to using a clone with a dated backup as a way to resolve this. It doesnt solve the issue and Id rather have watched Hank see the error in his ways and actually work towards redemption. Thats a more compelling story which would have been less messy and fewer implications

I meant the fact that Sage mentions the back-up is from when he was in the New Defenders, and how she mentions EVERY shady thing since thing Hank has done without context or simply mis-blaming him. Percy seems to be saying it was after this that Hank went bad, like there's some cut-off point where he's irredeemable.

[Havok83]

I meant the fact that Sage mentions the back-up is from when he was in the New Defenders, and how she mentions EVERY shady thing since thing Hank has done without context or simply mis-blaming him. Percy seems to be saying it was after this that Hank went bad, like there's some cut-off point where he's irredeemable.

Of course, I might not be making sense, my head has been cloudy the past few days because of the medicine I'm taking. Sorry!

She mentioend different transgressions since then but she never said those were examples of him being pure evil. I think you making a big leap without any of the nuance. I think Sage specifically called out different moments bc there was a cut off point which was defined by the backup she found, which Hank himself determined

[DurararaFTW]

She mentioend different transgressions since then but she never said those were examples of him being pure evil. I think you making a big leap without any of the nuance. I think Sage specifically called out different moments bc there was a cut off point which was defined by the backup she found, which Hank himself determined

When did Hank do a crime with MGH?

[norj]

When did Hank do a crime with MGH?

He accidentally created a version of it when working for the Brand corporation, it's what triggered his furry mutation.

[DurararaFTW]

He accidentally created a version of it when working for the Brand corporation, it's what triggered his furry mutation.

What he worked on in the Brand corporation was not identified as MGH, any connection to the drug which did already exist at the time is made retroactively (and MGH is general the drug that gives superpowers to normal human, not advance existing ones), by fans or writers after the fact like Percy. It is not an example of him being written immorally in the then present by dabbling in the use of MGH.

Also his work at the Brand Corporation predates his time with the New Defenders, he was already furry at the time this back-up refers back too.

[Mungho]

She mentioend different transgressions since then but she never said those were examples of him being pure evil. I think you making a big leap without any of the nuance. I think Sage specifically called out different moments bc there was a cut off point which was defined by the backup she found, which Hank himself determined

I'm sorry, I'm letting my pessimism go again.

I kept thinking about those leaks from 4chan how they said that bad-Hank would be replaced with a clone. But a dear friend I was talking to told me this:

This is the real Beast. They way they've described Krakoan resurrection in the past, if you think of the soul as a candle, the clone is basically what happens when you use one candle to light another. Same flame.

He said this was similar to the Laura/Talon situation. Both are valid individuals.

Another person had this to say:

In a Claremont-written backup story detailing Jean's experiences with the Phoenix as she was being cocooned and replaced, the Phoenix talks about souls akin to a candle's flame. Using a candle to light another doesn't diminish the flame of the first. Two can exist where one was and neither are the lesser for it. That's how I view the Laura situation. They lit a new candle to the backup of her flame, but they didn't realize the flame hadn't actually been snuffed.

At the same time, it's comics. We probably shouldn't be thinking too hard about it. I think this resurrected Hank is the real one. Brevoort will mandate something in the future, if he doesn't just tell the writers to ignore what Percy's done.

[Ogrebear]

I have finally read X-Factor 48 and I appreciate how Hank got out of that cell, nice and clever there as he always was.

I kinda get why Hank left too, I suspect he does not trust the mutants at that base, which is understandable, given they have woken him like an experiment, and will possibly put hm down once they he has performed for them OR it is possible his jailer 'falling' asleep, Hank accessing the files and taking off is exactly the plan- why else would Sage have not purged Beast's access from the bases systems otherwise? X-Factor is hoping Hank will lead them to Beast, hoping his moral indignation at what Beast has gone will lead to a confrontation?

Am wondering how Hank, one of the world's most recognisable mutants will be able to travel anywhere considering Orchis is looking out for mutants?

The glasses still annoy me.

[Havok83]

I'm sorry, I'm letting my pessimism go again.

I kept thinking about those leaks from 4chan how they said that bad-Hank would be replaced with a clone. But a dear friend I was talking to told me this:



He said this was similar to the Laura/Talon situation. Both are valid individuals.

Another person had this to say:



At the same time, it's comics. We probably shouldn't be thinking too hard about it. I think this resurrected Hank is the real one. Brevoort will mandate something in the future, if he doesn't just tell the writers to ignore what Percy's done.

Laura was resurrected by the Five with the Resurrection Protocols. There's been debate about whether those produce clones but we let it slide bc they've tried to present it as different. This new Beast is 100% a clone and produced by traditional cloning science methods. For example Ben Reilly ultimately was not considered the real Peter Parker bc of that despite having had his memories implanted up until the moment of cloning. Thats why its hard for be to by this new Beast as the real deal bc the memories arent even complete. He's very mnufactured. I'd rather this series ends with both of them dying and the Krakoa era climax resurrect Hank via the Phoenix Force as may are speculating for the other characters that have been killed off. That would feel more authentic than this

[Mungho]

Laura was resurrected by the Five with the Resurrection Protocols. There's been debate about whether those produce clones but we let it slide bc they've tried to present it as different. This new Beast is 100% a clone and produced by traditional cloning science methods. For example Ben Reilly ultimately was not considered the real Peter Parker bc of that despite having had his memories implanted up until the moment of cloning. Thats why its hard for be to by this new Beast as the real deal bc the memories arent even complete. He's very mnufactured. I'd rather this series ends with both of them dying and the Krakoa era climax resurrect Hank via the Phoenix Force as may are speculating for the other characters that have been killed off. That would feel more authentic than this

The problem is Percy has already revealed that this Beast is going to survive. It's the capstone to his run he stubbornly held to despite the difficulties it caused. Logan will save nu-Beast from evil-Beast(the boar), mirroring the very first pages of X-Force. However, I think the Phoenix Force together with some other powers will cause everything to be alright, somehow. I can't imagine the higher-ups with their wanting synergy with the upcoming cartoon and movies will want to leave such a mess as this alone.

Also, I'm trying to find some reason to stick around, that maybe my favorite character hasn't been destroyed forever.

[DurararaFTW]

The problem is Percy has already revealed that this Beast is going to survive. It's the capstone to his run he stubbornly held to despite the difficulties it caused. Logan will save nu-Beast from evil-Beast(the boar), mirroring the very first pages of X-Force. However, I think the Phoenix Force together with some other powers will cause everything to be alright, somehow. I can't imagine the higher-ups with their wanting synergy with the upcoming cartoon and movies will want to leave such a mess as this alone.

Also, I'm trying to find some reason to stick around, that maybe my favorite character hasn't been destroyed forever.

I don't think him saying that the ending of X-Force will mirror that scene in the beginning should by itself be taken as guarantee that this Beast alone will survive all along. Maybe Percy was gonna have one of the Beasts save Logan in the ending scene from some other threat. Beast's tusks got pretty big in some issues but it's not something that has ever been consistent, as though Percy was telling every artist that worked on issues of X-Force to put that in. Now I do believe good Beast alone will continue but I don't think Percy was guaranteed a 50 issues run, including bleed over into his Wolverine run to tell this story. By now it's run long enough that we've seen Jean tell Firestar to just give up Beast to Orchis and come up with lies as they'll believe just about anything about Beast at this point, Marvel shows it well aware of how low Beast's stock has dropped with fans during the Krakoa era, evil Beast can't just be handed off to the next writer of an X-Men team without some serious housekeeping.

[Mungho]

I don't think him saying that the ending of X-Force will mirror that scene in the beginning should by itself be taken as guarantee that this Beast alone will survive all along. Maybe Percy was gonna have one of the Beasts save Logan in the ending scene from some other threat. Beast's tusks got pretty big in some issues but it's not something that has ever been consistent, as though Percy was telling every artist that worked on issues of X-Force to put that in. Now I do believe good Beast alone will continue but I don't think Percy was guaranteed a 50 issues run, including bleed over into his Wolverine run to tell this story. By now it's run long enough that we've seen Jean tell Firestar to just give up Beast to Orchis and come up with lies as they'll believe just about anything about Beast at this point, Marvel shows it well aware of how low Beast's stock has dropped with fans during the Krakoa era, evil Beast can't just be handed off to the next writer of an X-Men team without some serious housekeeping.

I don't think he was guaranteed 50 issues. The theory I've heard is that Percy expected to finish X-Force around issue 30, but had to keep going. This is why there is so much filler, Colossus' plot was rushed, as is now his Beast plot. The resolution of Beast's plot HAD to be the final issue of X-Force as that's how Percy envisioned it. This would explain a lot.

Of course evil-Beast has to be killed off. Percy has made him too irredeemable and the hate for him is almost palpable. Evil Beast is going to be killed off in issue #50 of X-Force, leaving good-Beast to most likely wonder if he's the real Beast or not. Then, what I'm hoping is that Brevoort with a writer who actually likes Beast will retcon something how the evil-Beast hasn't been the real one, if Percy doesn't furnish an explanation, which he most likely won't.

Wait, I just thought of something, of when Hank was in the cell boring Black Tom:


Are they saying that they just dumped him in this cell immediately, and that he's spent hours questioning Tom until the latter is bored to sleep? And Hank just accepted being put in this cell? And shouldn't Hank have recognized Piotr and Logan? Piotr in particular is, or was, sympathetic to Hank, wondering aloud if he's being controlled, only for X23 to say something to the effect of "NO! He's been evil from the beginning!". That's the first instance of Percy saying this about Hank. The other was his repulsive dinner with Logan, where Hank tells Logan as such.

[Steroid]

I don't really know how this will all play out but for me what is important is having a decent Hank moving into the new era. However that is achieved is good with me and I'm not going to give myself a migraine over the real/fake of it all. At the end of the day it all still happened and Hank will have that stigma in universe regardless similar to Bishop. Unfortunately retcons never truly fixes character assassination but how this new Hank deals with this stigma could be an interesting story. Regardless going forward I hope that Hank thrives in the new era as I definitely am fond of the guy.

[Hypestyle]

What is the strength level of newly-revived good-Hank? How does his strength compare to the most recent, breaking-bad Hank?

[DurararaFTW]

What is the strength level of newly-revived good-Hank? How does his strength compare to the most recent, breaking-bad Hank?

Should be pretty much identical. Their bodies came from the exact same place. It's just the memories placed inside them before waking those bodies up that is different.

[Mungho]

Should be pretty much identical. Their bodies came from the exact same place. It's just the memories placed inside them before waking those bodies up that is different.

In issue #33 of Wolverine, some of the Hank-clones complain that bad-Beast made them near-sighted on purpose to emphasize his superior vision. This revived Hank also has to wear glasses, so there seem to be some minor differences.

This Hank didn't wear them at the time the memories were pulled from, and he doesn't seem find it weird he needs them. I may be over-thinking it though.