Cyclops/Scott Summers Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

Again, Scott rarely used lethal force. Cap and Logan have killed scores more than him. I guess they're dark and edgy maniacs by your logic.

When has Cap killed before? I've never heard of him having a particular high kill count.

[Gray Lensman]

When has Cap killed before? I've never heard of him having a particular high kill count.

My presumption would be in the War. But soldiers don't follow the same rules as superheroes.

[Havok83]

If the Avengers and the traitors didn’t antagonize him so much, Scott wouldn’t have lost control of the Phoenix, that’s a fact, I don’t care what Marvel says to excuse their bad writing, Scott was just making the world a better place and the Avengers couldn’t accept the fact that he made them irrelevant.

Scott was the last one standing not because of his connection with Jean but because he’s the mutant with the strongest will, if any X-Men character were to be a green lantern it would be Cyclops.

No, he was never supposed to contain that power; it was always meant for Hope. It was what she was born for. Scott getting the PF was a fluke and he was starting to lose it before that final battle with the Avengers. Yes he may have done some good but all of the P5 were being corrupted and doing f--ed up things as well, including Scott who literally said he was a god and was acting like he was above anything. He started to become power hungry which is why he tried to kill Emma bc h wanted it all for himself and hats the moment he lost any humanity he had and went completely dark. Scott was never going to be a stable Phoenix host. What would up happening was inevitable

[Gray Lensman]

No, he was never supposed to contain that power; it was always meant for Hope. It was what she was born for. Scott getting the PF was a fluke and he was starting to lose it before that final battle with the Avengers. Yes he may have done some good but all of the P5 were being corrupted and doing f--ed up things as well, including Scott who literally said he was a god and was acting like he was above anything. He started to become power hungry which is why he tried to kill Emma bc h wanted it all for himself and hats the moment he lost any humanity he had and went completely dark. Scott was never going to be a stable Phoenix host. What would up happening was inevitable

Mostly true, but what everyone else was doing was speeding up the process. And there was more to attacking Emma than just being power hungry - saying that loses enough context that it might as well be a lie. Emma had already cracked, and was openly talking about burning the world down. In that moment, everything good AND bad inside Scott came into agreement - The Phoenix was longing to be whole, Emma needed to have the power taken from her for the good of everyone else, and he was stinging from her admission of betrayal (and mining the memories of a cannibal for the "steak sauce" was a pretty twisted touch to drive home how far she was already gone). But, as you say, he was a very imperfect host, and holding that much, especially under the strain he was under, was more than he could handle.

[NearlyEnough]

No, he was never supposed to contain that power; it was always meant for Hope. It was what she was born for. Scott getting the PF was a fluke and he was starting to lose it before that final battle with the Avengers. Yes he may have done some good but all of the P5 were being corrupted and doing f--ed up things as well, including Scott who literally said he was a god and was acting like he was above anything. He started to become power hungry which is why he tried to kill Emma bc h wanted it all for himself and hats the moment he lost any humanity he had and went completely dark. Scott was never going to be a stable Phoenix host. What would up happening was inevitable

Scott wasn’t doing anything wrong with his power, and all the problems started when the Avengers began to antagonize them, he still was under control despite getting a bit of an ego (which makes total sense given how powerful he was at the moment), he attacked Emma because she had gone full batshit crazy and told him that she cheated with Namor, them she started talking about destroying the wold and that’s when Scott stole her part of the Phoenix, it was mainly because Emma was too far gone at the time and was the right choice both tactically and morally.

I don’t see how Scott would’ve lost control of the power if everyone didn’t attack him for no reason, heck, Xavier was threatening to shut down his mind when Scott snapped. What ended up happening was pretty evitable, if they didn’t treat Scott the way they did he wouldn’t have lost control.

You can’t blame him for the actions of the others, he was nowhere near as weak willed as them and blaming him for their actions is disingenuous.

[Refrax5]

When has Cap killed before? I've never heard of him having a particular high kill count.

Well, definitely during the war, Baron Blood, he killed a terrorist during Brubaker's run, etc. He's killed in extreme situations or when he felt it was warranted. No different from Scott in that regard.

[Havok83]

Scott wasn’t doing anything wrong with his power, and all the problems started when the Avengers began to antagonize them, he still was under control despite getting a bit of an ego (which makes total sense given how powerful he was at the moment), he attacked Emma because she had gone full batshit crazy and told him that she cheated with Namor, them she started talking about destroying the wold and that’s when Scott stole her part of the Phoenix, it was mainly because Emma was too far gone at the time and was the right choice both tactically and morally.

I don’t see how Scott would’ve lost control of the power if everyone didn’t attack him for no reason, heck, Xavier was threatening to shut down his mind when Scott snapped. What ended up happening was pretty evitable, if they didn’t treat Scott the way they did he wouldn’t have lost control.

You can’t blame him for the actions of the others, he was nowhere near as weak willed as them and blaming him for their actions is disingenuous.

Scott only went full Dark Phoenix after her attacked Emma and usurped all the power for himself. That much power corrupted him. He turned around and killed Xavier who was begging him to stop after he seemingly killed Emma in front of him. Scott attacked Emma bc he needed her power. AVX #10 show Hope punching him to space and she weakened him so bad that it took an hour for him to get up. At that moment the captions say he needed more power, he needed Emma, so he flew to Earth to take the rest of it from her. All the stuff she mentioned infuriated him, but he was intending to attack her regardless. She literally reads his mind and calls him out on that when he shows up

And i think its false to say the Avengers and X-men attacked Scott and Emma for no reason. They were acting like gods. Emma herself was forcing the X-men to kneel and adore her. They were starting to lose free will on Utopia bc she was acting like a tyrant. As you mention, she was already talking about burning the world down and she had been going around killing humans.. Right before this Namor had flooded Wakanda. Magik and Colossus were about to create another Inferno by bringing Limbo to Earth. The P5 needed to not have that power and it would have been unrealistic to expect everyone to just sit back and let things get worse as they saw the effects of the corruption

What was he ultimately going to do with the PF? It came to Earth to activate new mutant genes. That was Hope's duty, not Scott. Nothing about his time with it showed that he was trying to do that. He wasnt equipped to bc he was not the intended Phoenix host

[AJpyro]

What are you all even contesting about?

[NearlyEnough]

Doesn't really matter, it's clear that we're not gonna agree on this one, I think the Avengers were the bad guys of AvX, and Scott was right and only lost control because of their constant attacks and I'm not changing my opinion. The fact that soon after that they gave Echo the phoenix and had no problem with her just proves that they were just being hypocritical assholes, which is the norm when it comes to Cyclops, things are bad only if he's the one doing them, they can do worse but get a free pass.

[Frontier]

Well, definitely during the war, Baron Blood, he killed a terrorist during Brubaker's run, etc. He's killed in extreme situations or when he felt it was warranted. No different from Scott in that regard.

Everyone gets a pass for killing vampires .

I think the AIM agent death was even called out as Sharon as being out-of-character for him.

[Kal-El Summers]

This whole arguing over when Scott went Dark Phoenix in that stupid event is weird and pointless.

[Havok83]

This whole arguing over when Scott went Dark Phoenix in that stupid event is weird and pointless.

No one is arguing

[Refrax5]

Everyone gets a pass for killing vampires .

I think the AIM agent death was even called out as Sharon as being out-of-character for him.

It was the beginning of a change in him in that series, as I recall, and I'm pretty sure vampires are as sentient as any human or mutant.

Even if we only go by the MCU version, is Steve "dark and edgy" in those movies because he kills well into the present day, machine gunning the guys attacking the helicarrier? Hulk kills a bunch of guys and Thor and Steve are joking about it. Tony kills plenty of people in that movie.

Cyclops, not counting being possessed, I can't recall him ever directly killing anybody. Why is he Magneto 2.0 and "dark and edgy" when these other characters aren't? Why is Wolverine, a mass murderer who continues to kill, considered Xavier's greatest success when Scott has crossed some lines in extreme situations, but rarely allows for lethal force? It doesn't make any sense and is a wild double standard. Scott has only ever broken the law or done something dark to protect his people from extinction and, even then, he used restraint. Wolverine kills people all the time because he flies into a rage or because he decides they deserve it. He's hardly some paragon of Xavier's dream. He's always been a murderer and never stopped killing. I like Wolverine, but the guy is definitely not some virtuous boy scout.

[Havok83]

It was the beginning of a change in him in that series, as I recall, and I'm pretty sure vampires are as sentient as any human or mutant.

Even if we only go by the MCU version, is Steve "dark and edgy" in those movies because he kills well into the present day, machine gunning the guys attacking the helicarrier? Hulk kills a bunch of guys and Thor and Steve are joking about it. Tony kills plenty of people in that movie.

Cyclops, not counting being possessed, I can't recall him ever directly killing anybody. Why is he Magneto 2.0 and "dark and edgy" when these other characters aren't? Why is Wolverine, a mass murderer who continues to kill, considered Xavier's greatest success when Scott has crossed some lines in extreme situations, but rarely allows for lethal force? It doesn't make any sense and is a wild double standard. Scott has only ever broken the law or done something dark to protect his people from extinction and, even then, he used restraint. Wolverine kills people all the time because he flies into a rage or because he decides they deserve it. He's hardly some paragon of Xavier's dream. He's always been a murderer and never stopped killing. I like Wolverine, but the guy is definitely not some virtuous boy scout.

He started getting those comparisons when he formed X-Force as a secret assassin team to kill his enemies. He bears responsibility for those killed in their mission as he sanctioned that. As for direct "kills"

Mr Sinister. He "killed" him in Inferno. Granted that was retconned, but it was definitly a kill at the time
Donald Pierce
Berzerker
Ugly John
Candra
Dark Beast - another one that got retconned

[Mantis-Ray]

This whole arguing over when Scott went Dark Phoenix in that stupid event is weird and pointless.

Yeah that whole event was basically a hit piece on the character and required basically everyone involved to act like complete morons or opposite to their characters.

Its like how the whole Inhumans era had Storm practically fellatating the Inhumans and refusing to take any sort of stand against their genocidal negligence, while Scott was vilified for stopping the damn death cloud.

Like Black Bolt straight up executes Scott in front of everyone in Death of X. He didn't actually but regardless everyone thought he did and they just let him. They watched their longtime ally and friend murdered right before their eyes and they didn't even raise a finger. Nobody swore vengeance on Black Bolt or severely told him off, they just lied down with their tails between their legs because the Inhumans were the editorials pet characters and could never be in the wrong.

At that point you can't make sense of the Watsonian internal logic of the story, you have to focus entirely on the Doylist real world reasons for why this schlock was written.