Rachel Summers / Askani / Bright Lady 2024 Appreciation

[Subliminal]

Thanks for sharing. I never read that issue. It's the first time 616 Jean ever 'met' Rachel (or at least her essence). Neat. I got to read what made Jean pass out now. There are many issues with the Jean and Jean/Phoenix copy plot twist, as it made Jean into a Mary Sue and not responsible for mass murder. In regards to Rachel's mom, was Jean always Phoenix then? or is Rachel the daughter of the Jean/Phoenix copy?

[Micabe]

Thanks for sharing. I never read that issue. It's the first time 616 Jean ever 'met' Rachel (or at least her essence). Neat. I got to read what made Jean pass out now. There are many issues with the Jean and Jean/Phoenix copy plot twist, as it made Jean into a Mary Sue and not responsible for mass murder. In regards to Rachel's mom, was Jean always Phoenix then? or is Rachel the daughter of the Jean/Phoenix copy?

From a physical and chronicle point of view, Rachel Summers is the physical daughter of Jean Grey and Scott Summers of Earth-811 -- whether or not if Jean was host at the time of Rachel's birth has yet to be proven or disproven. What we do know is that Rachel is genetically a "Grey-Summers", her current timeline notwithstanding.

[Askani's Flame]

Ahhh, cool. I thought this could be Rachel's mom, but then there's so many questions how... Attachment 137267

As Micabe said, it was a Shi'ar holoempathic crystal the 616 Jean made for Rachel right before she died via Fauxneto. Outside of that one image from Uncanny X-Men 140.5 of a 811-White Phoenix Jean Grey, they have never interacted in a book without it being a memory.

Thanks for sharing. I never read that issue. It's the first time 616 Jean ever 'met' Rachel (or at least her essence). Neat. I got to read what made Jean pass out now. There are many issues with the Jean and Jean/Phoenix copy plot twist, as it made Jean into a Mary Sue and not responsible for mass murder. In regards to Rachel's mom, was Jean always Phoenix then? or is Rachel the daughter of the Jean/Phoenix copy?

In 811 Jean did not die after becoming the Dark Phoenix. She managed to resist the lure of power through the love of her family. So she remained the host of the Phoenix Force throughout the rest of her life. So from conception to birth Rachel has been connected to the Phoenix Force. Almost a third parent.

[Micabe]

As Micabe said, it was a Shi'ar holoempathic crystal the 616 Jean made for Rachel right before she died via Fauxneto. Outside of that one image from Uncanny X-Men 140.5 of a 811-White Phoenix Jean Grey, they have never interacted in a book without it being a memory.

In 811 Jean did not die after becoming the Dark Phoenix. She managed to resist the lure of power through the love of her family. So she remained the host of the Phoenix Force throughout the rest of her life. So from conception to birth Rachel has been connected to the Phoenix Force. Almost a third parent.

Yes, that's how I string it all together as well

[Subliminal]

As Micabe said, it was a Shi'ar holoempathic crystal the 616 Jean made for Rachel right before she died via Fauxneto. Outside of that one image from Uncanny X-Men 140.5 of a 811-White Phoenix Jean Grey, they have never interacted in a book without it being a memory.
In 811 Jean did not die after becoming the Dark Phoenix. She managed to resist the lure of power through the love of her family. So she remained the host of the Phoenix Force throughout the rest of her life. So from conception to birth Rachel has been connected to the Phoenix Force. Almost a third parent.

I agree with this, but that means in the 811 universe, there's still a cocooned Jean in Jamaica Bay waiting for rescue? Thought experiment: there might be many universes that have this Jean duplication scenario, but what if for Earth-811, Jean was always Phoenix from birth...which is why Rachel is unique in the multiverse?

[Micabe]

The idea that Scott of Earth-811 might not be Rachel's biological father making her the offspring solely of Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force is already out there and long ignored as a possibility.

[Mercury]

Let me chime in here, if I may. Firstly, since you're discussing characters and a concept—Jean, Rachel, and Phoenix, respectively—that Claremont developed and created, I think it's important to note what his past intentions and current vision were and are for them, especially since several of the writers that followed him have adhered and continue to adhere to both. Secondly, Jean's recent developments and established lore should also be discussed, particularly what was revealed throughout the Jean Grey (2023) miniseries, The Original X-Men #1 (2023), Immortal X-Men #16-18 (2023-2024), and Gillen's recent interview with AIPT, because they all line up with Claremont's vision and intent.

That said, Claremont has always maintained, as recently as last year, that "Jean...go[es] on forever," referring to her as one of the "core elements of the omniverse" and an "omniversal constant" (see his 2023 interview with Near Mint Condition below; go to the 33-minute mark). He makes it clear that Jean—her psyche and being—transcends timelines, i.e., she is a "constant" across the multiverse, which becomes clearer to her and us as readers as she ascends. (Sidebar: There's a reason why, in Jean's thread, I recently suggested that her astral tryst with Scott in X-Men #30 (2024) could have been the catalyst for Rachel's conception on Earth-818. That's because Claremont never saw Jean as having alternate versions of herself as much as infinite facets of herself. Multitudes. But I digress.)

Since Claremont considers Jean an "omniversal constant," it's clear he envisioned one Jean/Phoenix as the mother of one Rachel. After all, they constitute temporal anomalies, both as individuals and as mother and daughter. Destiny herself referred to Jean as a "nexus of probabilities" in X-Factor, which Tom Brevoort recently stated "was a reflection of the fact that Jean was still the Phoenix, even if it didn't seem so at the moment." (2nd Sidebar: Brevoort's comment is telling, considering the fact that, at the time, Madelyne was being animated by the portion of Jean's psyche that lived through the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas and which Jean wouldn't reabsorb until after Destiny's observation. Food for thought.)

In addition, Claremont expounded upon the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix retcon—he convinced Shooter to let him rewrite Byrne's original retcon—to reveal that Jean's psyche animated the "Phoenix clone" all along. He saw to it that Jean had always been and remained Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Moreover, Simonson doubled down on this in Jean Grey #4 (2024) when she had a facet of Jean's psyche tell her(self), "[Phoenix] rode your anger, your need, as far as possible...until your true will asserted itself and stopped it. You died, of course." (Sidebar #3: I also find it telling that Jean from Age of Apocalypse was among her many facets in the preceding issue [#3], demanding that she answer for "creat[ing] this mess.")

Furthermore, Gillen's description of Jean and Phoenix's relationship in Immortal X-Men #18 (2024), not to mention the dialogue he used to depict her scrambled thoughts in the previous issue, also adheres to Claremont's original intent and vision for her:

"Jean's connected to the White Hot Room, which is basically Phoenix. Any time she's dead, she's there. Out of time. She is one OF the Phoenix, in a real and unbreakable way. She guides it, and it guides her, in a circle without beginning or end."

And when a fan asked whether Gillen's recent work on Immortal X-Men implied that "Jean, the Phoenix, and the White Hot Room are one," he responded, "I would say that's an over-reach from the present evidence. You stab a voodoo doll and it hurts its target—but it doesn't mean they're the same thing. It means they're connected, in some way. Which isn't to say it [i.e., Jean, Phoenix, and the White Hot Room being one] isn't true either..."

Lastly, in The Original X-Men #1 (2023), Gage makes it implicitly clear that, at a certain level of consciousness, there is no distinction between Jean's "alternate versions" when Purple Phoenix reminds Marvel Girl, "And there are other worlds where you—where WE—did just that."



I wrote all of this to note that there is plenty of evidence, some of which I've cited above and some of which I've not, to assert that, at Jean's core, (1) she exists "out of time," (2) her relationship to and with Phoenix is unparalleled, and (3) her role as Rachel's mother is not compromised by alternate timelines and earths. Jean is Rachel's mother.

Is it any wonder Rachel has never viewed her any other way?

[Subliminal]

Let me chime in here, if I may. ... I wrote all of this to note that there is plenty of evidence, some of which I've cited above and some of which I've not, to assert that, at Jean's core, (1) she exists "out of time," (2) her relationship to and with Phoenix is unparalleled, and (3) her role as Rachel's mother is not compromised by alternate timelines and earths. Jean is Rachel's mother.

Is it any wonder Rachel has never viewed her any other way?

I know Rachel hears the song of the Phoenix and recognizes that as her mom, whether it's a version of Jean/phoenix in another universe, a flame bird in space or in a sword. Not sure if what you're mentioning means Madelyne is her mom as is any Jean across the multiverse is. It just makes 616 Jean's rejection all the more biting.

[Mercury]

I know Rachel hears the song of the Phoenix and recognizes that as her mom...

Rachel has called Jean "mom" and "mother" more times than I can count, and Jean has referred to her as "daughter," albeit fewer times. Considering the latter's trauma, that should be understandable. I understand that to some people, it isn't, but that's their problem.

...whether it's a version of Jean/phoenix in another universe, a flame bird in space or in a sword

Phoenix is a primal force that transcends spacetime, i.e., only one Phoenix exists. Jean is an "anomaly," "a nexus of probabilities," "an omniversal constant," and "one of the Phoenix, in a real and unbreakable way" with the word of "expressing the relationship between a part and a whole" or "indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging" (Oxford). This is canon.

Not sure if what you're mentioning means Madelyne is her mom as is any Jean across the multiverse is. It just makes 616 Jean's rejection all the more biting.

Frankly, I think you're being disingenuous—you've admitted as much to me in the past—but I'll save that conversation for our private chat...

I mentioned how Tom Brevoort viewed and currently views Jean in X-Factor to underscore this point: He never saw her as being anything but Phoenix, even after the retcon, which Claremont also ensured did not compromise Jean's identity as such. (As Jean herself said during Judgment Day, "I killed a planet.") As for what this says about Madelyne, it says what has always been clear in the stories: She was animated by Jean's psyche, which is why she thought Jean's memories her own. As for what Brevoort's comment underscores: Jean's psyche can reside within multiple bodies and on multiple planes of existence concurrently. This has been evidenced multiple times throughout her mythos.

Next.

[Devaishwarya]

More biting but also more real.
At the time Jean was obviously not aware of her existing out of time multiversity-blahblahblah because of her connection to the Phoenix...about which writer Chris Claremont was happy to theorise in notes and interviews but never ever in the actual story make the character about whom he was theorising that self-aware.

616 Jean upon meeting Rachel for the first time had no maternal feelings, no recollection of being pregnant with and giving birth to this woman from a different timeline...so why shouldn't she reject Rachel and be biting, in that moment?

[Micabe]

More biting but also more real.
At the time Jean was obviously not aware of her existing out of time multiversity-blahblahblah because of her connection to the Phoenix...about which writer Chris Claremont was happy to theorise in notes and interviews but never ever in the actual story make the character about whom he was theorising that self-aware.

616 Jean upon meeting Rachel for the first time had no maternal feelings, no recollection of being pregnant with and giving birth to this woman from a different timeline...so why shouldn't she reject Rachel and be biting, in that moment?

Because that's not the type of person Jean Grey is when it comes down to it.

[Subliminally]

Let me chime in here, if I may. Firstly, since you're discussing characters and a concept—Jean, Rachel, and Phoenix, respectively—that Claremont developed and created, I think it's important to note what his past intentions and current vision were and are for them, especially since several of the writers that followed him have adhered and continue to adhere to both. Secondly, Jean's recent developments and established lore should also be discussed, particularly what was revealed throughout the Jean Grey (2023) miniseries, The Original X-Men #1 (2023), Immortal X-Men #16-18 (2023-2024), and Gillen's recent interview with AIPT, because they all line up with Claremont's vision and intent.

That said, Claremont has always maintained, as recently as last year, that "Jean...go[es] on forever," referring to her as one of the "core elements of the omniverse" and an "omniversal constant" (see his 2023 interview with Near Mint Condition below; go to the 33-minute mark). He makes it clear that Jean—her psyche and being—transcends timelines, i.e., she is a "constant" across the multiverse, which becomes clearer to her and us as readers as she ascends. (Sidebar: There's a reason why, in Jean's thread, I recently suggested that her astral tryst with Scott in X-Men #30 (2024) could have been the catalyst for Rachel's conception on Earth-818. That's because Claremont never saw Jean as having alternate versions of herself as much as infinite facets of herself. Multitudes. But I digress.)

Since Claremont considers Jean an "omniversal constant," it's clear he envisioned one Jean/Phoenix as the mother of one Rachel. After all, they constitute temporal anomalies, both as individuals and as mother and daughter. Destiny herself referred to Jean as a "nexus of probabilities" in X-Factor, which Tom Brevoort recently stated "was a reflection of the fact that Jean was still the Phoenix, even if it didn't seem so at the moment." (2nd Sidebar: Brevoort's comment is telling, considering the fact that, at the time, Madelyne was being animated by the portion of Jean's psyche that lived through the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas and which Jean wouldn't reabsorb until after Destiny's observation. Food for thought.)

In addition, Claremont expounded upon the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix retcon—he convinced Shooter to let him rewrite Byrne's original retcon—to reveal that Jean's psyche animated the "Phoenix clone" all along. He saw to it that Jean had always been and remained Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Moreover, Simonson doubled down on this in Jean Grey #4 (2024) when she had a facet of Jean's psyche tell her(self), "[Phoenix] rode your anger, your need, as far as possible...until your true will asserted itself and stopped it. You died, of course." (Sidebar #3: I also find it telling that Jean from Age of Apocalypse was among her many facets in the preceding issue [#3], demanding that she answer for "creat[ing] this mess.")

Furthermore, Gillen's description of Jean and Phoenix's relationship in Immortal X-Men #18 (2024), not to mention the dialogue he used to depict her scrambled thoughts in the previous issue, also adheres to Claremont's original intent and vision for her:



And when a fan asked whether Gillen's recent work on Immortal X-Men implied that "Jean, the Phoenix, and the White Hot Room are one," he responded, "I would say that's an over-reach from the present evidence. You stab a voodoo doll and it hurts its target—but it doesn't mean they're the same thing. It means they're connected, in some way. Which isn't to say it [i.e., Jean, Phoenix, and the White Hot Room being one] isn't true either..."

Lastly, in The Original X-Men #1 (2023), Gage makes it implicitly clear that, at a certain level of consciousness, there is no distinction between Jean's "alternate versions" when Purple Phoenix reminds Marvel Girl, "And there are other worlds where you—where WE—did just that."



I wrote all of this to note that there is plenty of evidence, some of which I've cited above and some of which I've not, to assert that, at Jean's core, (1) she exists "out of time," (2) her relationship to and with Phoenix is unparalleled, and (3) her role as Rachel's mother is not compromised by alternate timelines and earths. Jean is Rachel's mother.

Is it any wonder Rachel has never viewed her any other way?

Well, that was a lot....

[Mercury]

Well, that was a lot....

You little...

::ulls you into our private room:::

[Micabe]

Well, that was a lot....

Two hours and change is a cinema movie... Thank Jeanus for the YouTube online downloader I'll watch it at my leisure later

[Devaishwarya]

Because that's not the type of person Jean Grey is when it comes down to it.

As we've seen many times before...Jean is exactly that person.

She wouldn't accept anything, anyone at mere face-value. Far less a complete stranger showing up and claiming some wild story, even if that story happens to be true for her.

As for Claremont...I refuse to take him seriously now. And generally do not watch any of his interviews. Because they're usually quite frustrating. He had sixteen years to put all his theories and notes and plans into play for Jean (and many other characters) but chose not to for whatever reason. Now, decades later he wants to add more meaning to the narrative, when fifty other writers have already added their own theories and notes into the swill, since then.

All I can say is Thank the Goddess! Mercury has chosen to do his work for him to add some semblance of meaning to his notes.