John Stewart: Green Lantern Appreciation 2024

[Refrax5]

I guess to me it's just I found plenty of depth in his portrayals in the past few runs, especially when he was being poised as a leader to the Corps. so I don't really see the disconnect, but to each their own.

Well, I think you view his military career in a very different way than I do. I can't reconcile the anti-authoritarian activist with the crew cut soldier boy persona. He went from a guy mouthing off to cops to a guy blowing the heads off guys in Afghanistan for Uncle Sam. He went from Cornell West to Chris Kyle. One of those guys I respect. The other I don't.

I should also say I've dealt with numerous marines personally and somebody very close to me is a journalist that worked as a war correspondent in various military campaigns our country waged in the middle east. The footage I've seen and the firsthand accounts I've heard make it very hard to buy into all the "rah rah USA" military jingoism. It's depressing to see a character like John be rewritten in that way for me. I see it as a fundamental alteration in the character's values.

I think we need more activism and less right-wing authoritarianism in our superheroes. Don't see myself changing my mind on that any time soon.

[StarSpangledMan]

We should definitely see less of superheroes endorsing and downright upholding the status quo. The very idea of a superhero is someone has to act given that existing systems and powers have failed them and the rest of society. Narrowing in on the Green Lanterns, they serve the eternal laws, the cosmic laws of the universe, like angels of a cosmic Dharma. But most importantly the GLC serve the people and each of its members should always act in the best interest a the universal populace.

For the GLC to bow down in servitude of any group with its own agendas or to adopt the structure and mechanisms of... idk... the 21st Century American military machine/cops is a pretty big headscratcher. And more so for its knights to still have a foot stuck in the muck of conservative status quo and its systems while trying to uphold values of progressive reform or revolution. I think what is being done with John these days works (PKJ) as he reads as someone who has done what he's done in the service but has now moved on and grown to value different ideals, ex-military John can work as a self that John gains wisdom from but I think it's used incorrectly and lazily a lot of the time.

Current John and Morrison Hal are exactly the kind of Green Lanterns who are needed, people who have reconciled their various selves, people who look to the past for wisdom but aren't beholden to it, people who aren't afraid to tear down corrupt or weak systems that do not favour its constituents. I honestly dream for the day when the GLC is renowned as space rangers whose heroic deeds and championship of the oppressed are welcome to some and rebuffed by others but are nonetheless legendary among the spaceways.

[Frontier]

Well, I think you view his military career in a very different way than I do. I can't reconcile the anti-authoritarian activist with the crew cut soldier boy persona. He went from a guy mouthing off to cops to a guy blowing the heads off guys in Afghanistan for Uncle Sam. He went from Cornell West to Chris Kyle. One of those guys I respect. The other I don't.

I should also say I've dealt with numerous marines personally and somebody very close to me is a journalist that worked as a war correspondent in various military campaigns our country waged in the middle east. The footage I've seen and the firsthand accounts I've heard make it very hard to buy into all the "rah rah USA" military jingoism. It's depressing to see a character like John be rewritten in that way for me. I see it as a fundamental alteration in the character's values.

I think we need more activism and less right-wing authoritarianism in our superheroes. Don't see myself changing my mind on that any time soon.

I guess to me it's the fantasy of comics that I don't think John needs to fit into that paradigm and can act differently even if it's unrealistic. He's never come across as a "rah rah USA" or hardcore patriot character post-retcon outside a few instances in the Johns run.

[Refrax5]

We should definitely see less of superheroes endorsing and downright upholding the status quo. The very idea of a superhero is someone has to act given that existing systems and powers have failed them and the rest of society. Narrowing in on the Green Lanterns, they serve the eternal laws, the cosmic laws of the universe, like angels of a cosmic Dharma. But most importantly the GLC serve the people and each of its members should always act in the best interest a the universal populace.

For the GLC to bow down in servitude of any group with its own agendas or to adopt the structure and mechanisms of... idk... the 21st Century American military machine/cops is a pretty big headscratcher. And more so for its knights to still have a foot stuck in the muck of conservative status quo and its systems while trying to uphold values of progressive reform or revolution. I think what is being done with John these days works (PKJ) as he reads as someone who has done what he's done in the service but has now moved on and grown to value different ideals, ex-military John can work as a self that John gains wisdom from but I think it's used incorrectly and lazily a lot of the time.

Current John and Morrison Hal are exactly the kind of Green Lanterns who are needed, people who have reconciled their various selves, people who look to the past for wisdom but aren't beholden to it, people who aren't afraid to tear down corrupt or weak systems that do not favour its constituents. I honestly dream for the day when the GLC is renowned as space rangers whose heroic deeds and championship of the oppressed are welcome to some and rebuffed by others but are nonetheless legendary among the spaceways.

You put that really well. Totally agree. I think the more modern depiction of the GLC as this very militarized, very American-ish police force is not only sending the wrong message, but it's so lazy and literal-minded. The "space cop" description is kind of a shorthand way of explaining what they are, but so many writers make them this very literal police force that operates the way a human police force does, which really doesn't make a lot of sense. What was once this cosmic, noble brother/sister/otherhood of protectors and peacekeepers has been reduced to such a mundane, humanized organization and it really takes so much of the grandeur and wonder out of it. It also seems stupid that these ancient, unknowable beings would create something that so resembles the flawed organizations of our backwater planet.

Then they give John and Guy military/cop backgrounds and (for a time) really emphasized Hal as this hot-headed, terrorist-bombing military guy and the whole thing got a very cheesy, Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer dudebro vibe to it.

I feel like John's depictions in recent years are just a symptom of the overall dumbing down of the whole concept. PJK has done the best job depicting John as a human being with nuance and personality that's evolved from his military experience, so I'm sad to hear he's leaving the book.

[Refrax5]

I guess to me it's the fantasy of comics that I don't think John needs to fit into that paradigm and can act differently even if it's unrealistic. He's never come across as a "rah rah USA" or hardcore patriot character post-retcon outside a few instances in the Johns run.

That's easier to do when it's not a real-life organization and a real-life war he's placed in. There's studies that have shown the damaging effects these lionized depictions of police and military have on society and their understanding of what these people and organizations actually do. There's a reason they call certain shows "copaganda" and why the military uses media depictions to help recruitment numbers.

Beyond that, even in-universe John is now the kind of man that trusts the government to tell him who to kill and has killed on their orders many, many times and that's simply in contradiction to what he was created to represent. It's the opposite of a thoughtful, socially conscious and ethical rebel would do.

Not every superhero needs to be a militarized killer. I liked John because he WASN'T that kind of person, honestly. I don't see regulation crew-cut soldier boy as any kind of rebel.

Like I said, it's a difference in values, politics and perspectives. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I'm not losing sleep over it if they don't.

[Frontier]

You put that really well. Totally agree. I think the more modern depiction of the GLC as this very militarized, very American-ish police force is not only sending the wrong message, but it's so lazy and literal-minded. The "space cop" description is kind of a shorthand way of explaining what they are, but so many writers make them this very literal police force that operates the way a human police force does, which really doesn't make a lot of sense. What was once this cosmic, noble brother/sister/otherhood of protectors and peacekeepers has been reduced to such a mundane, humanized organization and it really takes so much of the grandeur and wonder out of it. It also seems stupid that these ancient, unknowable beings would create something that so resembles the flawed organizations of our backwater planet.

Then they give John and Guy military/cop backgrounds and (for a time) really emphasized Hal as this hot-headed, terrorist-bombing military guy and the whole thing got a very cheesy, Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer dudebro vibe to it.

I feel like John's depictions in recent years are just a symptom of the overall dumbing down of the whole concept. PJK has done the best job depicting John as a human being with nuance and personality that's evolved from his military experience, so I'm sad to hear he's leaving the book.

I think ultimately it just comes down to how you play the concept/characters.

I don't think the "Space Cop" aspect was implemented badly in, say, Morrison's run, the Rebirth era, GL:TAS, etc.

[Redjack]

I think ultimately it just comes down to how you play the concept/characters.

I don't think the "Space Cop" aspect was implemented badly in, say, Morrison's run, the Rebirth era, GL:TAS, etc.

I've never liked the whole "space cop" thing.

They should be peacekeepers, first responders, rescuers.

If they're cops they're implementing the law. Whose law? the Guardians? Who are they to dictate anything to other species?

[Refrax5]

I think ultimately it just comes down to how you play the concept/characters.

I don't think the "Space Cop" aspect was implemented badly in, say, Morrison's run, the Rebirth era, GL:TAS, etc.

I would agree that Morrison did a great job with it (although they went a little too on-the-nose at times) but Morrison's worst work is better than most writers' best, so that's an exception.

I just find the idea of this ancient, cosmic organization functioning and behaving like American cops and military stupid on general principle. It's reducing something wondrous and mysterious to its most mundane, literal, lazy interpretation.

[StarSpangledMan]

"These beings have been around since the dawn of the universe. They have an intrinsic understanding of what is right in the sense of what leads to greater organization, more freedom, and more of all of those things. They understand it in ways that we don’t.

So, the Green Lanterns are following a code of law that follows the fundamental principles of how the universe was created. We really want to go into that. I don’t think it’s been done before, to show that there’s more to this. There isn’t a bunch of law enforcers who are just out there traveling to say that it was wrong to cross that line, or wrong to be this person. They know the rightness in things. They know the wrongness in things, and they like to try and correct it for the evolution of the universe.

Yeah, it seems like a police force, but the more we get into the actual philosophy, the weirder and more alien it becomes."

Morrison on the "space cop" thing

[Frontier]

Not to say the Guardians probably don't think they have the power to denote their own sense of justice on the universe because they think they're old enough to know what's best (because they are) but I have to imagine there is some kind of intergalactic legal system otherwise it would be completely lawless.

I think the "Space Cop" thing is mostly just shorthand to basically sum up the concept, purpose, and implementation of the GLC, how people use it is up to the writer. For me I just see it denoting an organization of law-abiders who work together and patrol the galaxy doing good and have that sense of camaraderie.

[ducklord]

I've never liked the whole "space cop" thing.

They should be peacekeepers, first responders, rescuers.

If they're cops they're implementing the law. Whose law? the Guardians? Who are they to dictate anything to other species?

As always, I think you've got this more-or-less pegged.

GLs are wandering knights, protecting the innocent and rescuing those in need. Assuming that they're not messing up (Sinestro), the Guardians mostly leave them alone, except on those occasions when their Big Giant Heads suddenly pop up to give them a mission. It may be a big mission ("Head over to the Sombrero Galaxy to stop a supernova from wiping out a galactic empire") or a seemingly pointless one ("There's a space cat caught in a space tree in the Bootes Void"), but trying to understand the *why* of the Guardians' directives is pointless - they're billions of years old, and they've got their reasons.

Turning the knight errant metaphor into a cop show metaphor has been (Morrison aside - but they're always the exception to the rule, no?) a huge drag on the property, imho.

[Redjack]

As always, I think you've got this more-or-less pegged.

GLs are wandering knights, protecting the innocent and rescuing those in need. Assuming that they're not messing up (Sinestro), the Guardians mostly leave them alone, except on those occasions when their Big Giant Heads suddenly pop up to give them a mission. It may be a big mission ("Head over to the Sombrero Galaxy to stop a supernova from wiping out a galactic empire") or a seemingly pointless one ("There's a space cat caught in a space tree in the Bootes Void"), but trying to understand the *why* of the Guardians' directives is pointless - they're billions of years old, and they've got their reasons.

Turning the knight errant metaphor into a cop show metaphor has been (Morrison aside - but they're always the exception to the rule, no?) a huge drag on the property, imho.

The Lensman series, upon which the rebooted Silver Age Green Lantern was based (or stolen from, depending on who you ask) is a pro-Fascist Sci-fi series from the 1950s. The NO KILLING provision was, I think, one of the ways they tried to move the GLC into a more heroic column because, without that, they're just storm troopers, imposing the will of unelected dictators. Might Makes Right.

By removing the NO KILLING aspect of the GLC (still in effect AFAIK) the "space cop" implication became the hard reality. Currently, unless the current writers and editors take pains to change it, the GLC is a fascist organization. That's part of what I was trying to do.

Part of getting rid of the Guardians, for me, was to turn the GLC into a self-governing group where the very debates we have here would have come up amongst the surviving members of the corps as they tried to reset themselves and their position in the galaxy.

Simply put: for them to be considered heroic, they MUST operate outside any particular governmental status quo, with the protection and defense of sentients as their ONLY mandate. That's not cops.

But that view bumps up against the power fantasies of not only too many people in the super-hero audience but too many of those of the corporate owners, editors and writers who've driven the franchise over the decades.

Cops represent governments. The Guardians aren't that.

So the GLC CAN'T be "space cops" if they also want to be heroes. The two jobs are antithetical.

between them and that hurt.jpg

[Frontier]

I don't thin it really has to be that difficult if only just because most Superheroes basically service the law by fighting crime even if they have to dress up in costumes and fight outside of it as vigilante's to do so, but the GL's don't really have that issue because they service the galaxy.

[Refrax5]

I don't thin it really has to be that difficult if only just because most Superheroes basically service the law by fighting crime even if they have to dress up in costumes and fight outside of it as vigilante's to do so, but the GL's don't really have that issue because they service the galaxy.

Well, most superheroes don't enact lethal force and many of them aren't liked by the police. Even so, there's something of what Alan Moore was getting at with Watchmen, that there is something authoritarian and disturbing about superheroes as a concept. Fighting off an aggressor to save an innocent life is, I imagine most would agree, a justified use of force. But the lines definitely get blurry when you get into the weeds of these guys essentially beating the hell out of people to enforce the law and uphold the status quo.

I think that's why I always preferred the pre-Johns Hal Jordan who was a little more noble and idealistic than the military man dudebro he's turned into. Same for John and even Guy, who's backstory used to be coaching underprivileged kids and is now (shocker) ex-cop.

As I get older, I gravitate back towards the heroes like Spider-Man who, while obviously gets into fights and things like that, is basically just a guy trying to protect his community and who tries to help even his enemies.Thats one of the things about the last live action Spider-Man movie that impressed me. It was a rare blockbuster action movie where a central piece of the plot was the hero trying to save and rehabilitate his enemies instead of kill them.

I feel like modern comics have lost that more idealistic, humanitarian ethos, honestly. I really have always blanched at the way the GLC has been portrayed since Hal's return and how Johns turned both Wally and Barry into these hard-nosed "These guys are guilty and have to PAY" kind of guys, really going overboard with Barry in particular as a cop who sees everything in black-and-white and so forth. I think a lot of what made superheroes palatable is that they were defined by their compassion and high ideals more than any government organization could be.

[Refrax5]

Morrison on the "space cop" thing

Yeah, Grant gets it, as usual.