John Stewart: Green Lantern Appreciation 2024

[Frontier]

Well, most superheroes don't enact lethal force and many of them aren't liked by the police. Even so, there's something of what Alan Moore was getting at with Watchmen, that there is something authoritarian and disturbing about superheroes as a concept. Fighting off an aggressor to save an innocent life is, I imagine most would agree, a justified use of force. But the lines definitely get blurry when you get into the weeds of these guys essentially beating the hell out of people to enforce the law and uphold the status quo.

I think that's why I always preferred the pre-Johns Hal Jordan who was a little more noble and idealistic than the military man dudebro he's turned into. Same for John and even Guy, who's backstory used to be coaching underprivileged kids and is now (shocker) ex-cop.

As I get older, I gravitate back towards the heroes like Spider-Man who, while obviously gets into fights and things like that, is basically just a guy trying to protect his community and who tries to help even his enemies.Thats one of the things about the last live action Spider-Man movie that impressed me. It was a rare blockbuster action movie where a central piece of the plot was the hero trying to save and rehabilitate his enemies instead of kill them.

I feel like modern comics have lost that more idealistic, humanitarian ethos, honestly. I really have always blanched at the way the GLC has been portrayed since Hal's return and how Johns turned both Wally and Barry into these hard-nosed "These guys are guilty and have to PAY" kind of guys, really going overboard with Barry in particular as a cop who sees everything in black-and-white and so forth. I think a lot of what made superheroes palatable is that they were defined by their compassion and high ideals more than any government organization could be.

I think the only Superheroes that are really unpopular with law enforcement is the Batfamily but that's pretty inconsistent. In general most police forces work with their hero (Superman, Flash, Aquaman, etc.) in the DCU.

I think it was also kind of the point of the Johns era that the GLC was becoming more hardcore or fascist or brutal (from Sinestro and Scar's planning) while the main members were trying to keep the groups' ideals alive and keep it honest.

[Refrax5]

I think the only Superheroes that are really unpopular with law enforcement is the Batfamily but that's pretty inconsistent. In general most police forces work with their hero (Superman, Flash, Aquaman, etc.) in the DCU.

I think it was also kind of the point of the Johns era that the GLC was becoming more hardcore or fascist or brutal (from Sinestro and Scar's planning) while the main members were trying to keep the groups' ideals alive and keep it honest.

The problem is that he makes them be military guys in their real lives, too, so its already shown that John and Hal don't have problems killing for their bosses. John is sniping Sinestro Corps members and Hal is bombing terrorists (he also complains about scrutiny being placed on the US military for their treatment of prisoners. This was a story published not too long after Abu Ghraib), quoting John McCain, and saying that "the only ones worried about big brother watching are the guys doing something wrong." He also beats the **** out of a prisoner in custody during that run and there's also the infamous scene where Hal blows a Sinestro Corps member's head off and delivers a one-liner.

Of course, getting back to John, Johns also introduced the idea that he was an accomplished sniper and wrote the story that had John about to gun down unarmed looters in Afghanistan. That's a literal war crime, right?

So if he was trying to depict Hal and John as not being authoritarian and violent, he failed utterly. Hell, there were jokes on these boards at the time about how Johns made GL a military recruitment ad.

As for outlaw heroes, I was more referring to the olden days where Superman was more of a pulpy folk hero that fought the authorities or characters like Spider-Man who's frequently hounded by the law. Hulk comics frequently depicted the authorities as outright villainous.

[Holt]

Edit 10char

[HsssH]

I think it was also kind of the point of the Johns era that the GLC was becoming more hardcore or fascist or brutal (from Sinestro and Scar's planning) while the main members were trying to keep the groups' ideals alive and keep it honest.

I think major problem with Johns writing for me is that he tries to do some deeper stuff, but then either drops it entirely or doesn't wrap it up in a satisfying way. As you mentioned, during SCW Sinestro's big plan wasn't to win, but to make GLC more fascist, more in his liking. Guardians changing the rules so that GL can use lethal force against anyone (first it was only against Sinestro's Corps from what I remember) was portrayed as a win for Sinestro. I like that, that can lead to some good stories about GLC eventually getting back to their "roots", but from what I remember that never happened and as Redjack pointed out it is still in effect.

Few other random thoughts reading this thread:

I think that the big problem (or elephant in the room) is the insane amount of material available about soldiers/ex-soldiers/cops/ex-cops being the main character in some story and saving the day. I don't think that there is anyone in the western world (I'd like to say the entire world, but I frankly don't know much about what people in Africa or Southeast Asia watch or read) who hasn't read or watched or listened to at least few of such stories. So everyone is, to some extent, familiar with tropes present in such works. People know what to expect from a story about ex-marine, he might have a gun or power ring or just a knife, but there are certain story beats that will be there. And when same people become writers they use same tropes and story beats.

So I think it is a major reason why every GL eventually becomes connected to military/cops in some way because lets be real, there are close to 0 good John stories with his architect background being important. It is not because it can't be done, but because vast majority of comic book writers haven't read any cool stories with architect as the main guy so they can't write one for John either. On the other hand we have DC (or Warner or Discovery) as the corporation that simply wants to make money and they see that nobody is doing **** with architects and every year we get 50 new TV shows about cops so might as well focus on GLs being space cops because that is going to make them $$$$.

There are many reasons why GL franchise dropped in popularity, but space cops angle being somewhat downplayed since Johns left likely also played a role in that. More people are probably interested in space cops than in wandering knights or whatever else 10 of us talk about on this ancient forum.

As I get older, I gravitate back towards the heroes like Spider-Man who, while obviously gets into fights and things like that, is basically just a guy trying to protect his community and who tries to help even his enemies. Thats one of the things about the last live action Spider-Man movie that impressed me. It was a rare blockbuster action movie where a central piece of the plot was the hero trying to save and rehabilitate his enemies instead of kill them.

I think major thing here is civilian supporting casts being phased out of most of the comics. Vast majority of superheroes, in practical sense, don't have public identities anymore asides of some random panel "oh hey, character X still works at Y" that doesn't really mean anything. Or bunch of superheroes meeting in a bar or another public place without costumes. Usually we just see them in costume 24/7 waging their own personal wars against whoever. They are not longer a part of their own communities, but they are a part of superhero community.

[Sodam Yat]

Since it's black history month, DC had written a nice article about John Stewart's first appearance and how he's been introduced as a Marine.

I agree 100% of what the author had said in that post.

Like the author, I too didn't know who any other Green Lanterns were, only John Stewart. I also seen John Stewart as a Marine, before he became architect, because that's how I was introduced to him. I don't think it was anything wrong that Geoff Johns added a Marine background to John. That was probably the only common sense thing he did with the character. But the problem is that many writers had disinterest in the character and it's more challenging when you have to develop a character with little comic history with not a lot roles.

[Sodam Yat]

Happy Valentine's Day everyone.

[Refrax5]

I think major problem with Johns writing for me is that he tries to do some deeper stuff, but then either drops it entirely or doesn't wrap it up in a satisfying way. As you mentioned, during SCW Sinestro's big plan wasn't to win, but to make GLC more fascist, more in his liking. Guardians changing the rules so that GL can use lethal force against anyone (first it was only against Sinestro's Corps from what I remember) was portrayed as a win for Sinestro. I like that, that can lead to some good stories about GLC eventually getting back to their "roots", but from what I remember that never happened and as Redjack pointed out it is still in effect.

Few other random thoughts reading this thread:

I think that the big problem (or elephant in the room) is the insane amount of material available about soldiers/ex-soldiers/cops/ex-cops being the main character in some story and saving the day. I don't think that there is anyone in the western world (I'd like to say the entire world, but I frankly don't know much about what people in Africa or Southeast Asia watch or read) who hasn't read or watched or listened to at least few of such stories. So everyone is, to some extent, familiar with tropes present in such works. People know what to expect from a story about ex-marine, he might have a gun or power ring or just a knife, but there are certain story beats that will be there. And when same people become writers they use same tropes and story beats.

So I think it is a major reason why every GL eventually becomes connected to military/cops in some way because lets be real, there are close to 0 good John stories with his architect background being important. It is not because it can't be done, but because vast majority of comic book writers haven't read any cool stories with architect as the main guy so they can't write one for John either. On the other hand we have DC (or Warner or Discovery) as the corporation that simply wants to make money and they see that nobody is doing **** with architects and every year we get 50 new TV shows about cops so might as well focus on GLs being space cops because that is going to make them $$$$.

There are many reasons why GL franchise dropped in popularity, but space cops angle being somewhat downplayed since Johns left likely also played a role in that. More people are probably interested in space cops than in wandering knights or whatever else 10 of us talk about on this ancient forum.



I think major thing here is civilian supporting casts being phased out of most of the comics. Vast majority of superheroes, in practical sense, don't have public identities anymore asides of some random panel "oh hey, character X still works at Y" that doesn't really mean anything. Or bunch of superheroes meeting in a bar or another public place without costumes. Usually we just see them in costume 24/7 waging their own personal wars against whoever. They are not longer a part of their own communities, but they are a part of superhero community.

You're not totally wrong, but I think phasing out the heroes' civilian lives is a mistake, too. A huge part of Marvel's original success was making the human being inside the costume as important as the superhero stuff. I think removing that human, real-life element of superhero comics has made them lose something. Kyle Rayner is a good example. He never really had the same appeal to me when he was taken away from NYC and made into a full-time cosmic hero. I still like Kyle, but I always found him more fun when he was a little more grounded.

As for John, I get what you mean about architecture not necessarily lending itself to exciting stories, but I wasn't really lamenting the lack of architecture stories with John. I more miss the philosophical, fiery activist elements of the character. And those, ironically, have often still worked incredibly well in stories where John IS a full time GL. Putting aside the disturbing issues with the author, Mosaic was one of those defining stories for John in my mind because it explored so much of who John was as a human being, but also because it allowed him to use his unique way of thinking and approaching problems, his way of viewing society and it's injustices, his desire to use his brain and conscience before using his fists, to tackle this very sci-fi idea.

Don't get me wrong, John should definitely be a formidable opponent when it comes down to a fight and I love to see him kick ass when he needs to. But I always liked that classic John always tried to approach problems on a deeper level before fighting. As much as I don't like the way Johns handled John Stewart, he had a few moments I liked, one of which was referring to John as someone who wanted "not just to save lives, but make a difference in them," and having John be the one Lantern to say no to being an Alpha Lantern. That's the kind of stuff that I think should define the character much more than the military stuff. There's a million military type characters in this genre. I think it's more unique and interesting to have a philosopher-warrior, a thinker and an activist that's, at the same time, struggling with his own demons. I just always found that take on him infinitely more complex, unique and compelling. It doesn't really matter what his day job is. It's just about characterization.

[Will Evans]

How do all of you feel about Katma Tui continually being John’s “Lost Lenore?”

[Redjack]

How do all of you feel about Katma Tui continually being John’s “Lost Lenore?”

I was in the process of fixing that. That's how I feel about it.

As for "Activist John" how long did he actually occupy that role? not long from what I can tell. "Architect" John, lasted a bit longer but, again, due to the sporadic use of the character over the decades that has fallen away as well. Part of the reason the marine thing hit and stuck so hard is it's an easy shorthand (as we've seen, easy to fall into stereotype as well).

The reason so many John fans latch on to MOSAIC so hard it remains the ONLY time John got any serious depth added to his character and why my run is a direct sequel to that and, obliquely, to John's time as a Darkstar.

It's sad to see PKJ stepping away but, the company seems not to understand, there is no quick fix for John Stewart. Whoever is writing him is going to need AT LEAST two years to pull him into something worthwhile. Every time a writer steps away the two-year clock resets to zero.

Welcome the terror dome, kids. This has been John Stewart's path since he was born.

[Frontier]

Happy Valentine's Day everyone.

Well, Kendra wants nothing to do with Hawkman any more so this ship could happen! If people are fine with John being with another Hawkgirl that's not Shayera.

[j9ac9k]

It's sad to see PKJ stepping away but, the company seems not to understand, there is no quick fix for John Stewart. Whoever is writing him is going to need AT LEAST two years to pull him into something worthwhile. Every time a writer steps away the two-year clock resets to zero.

I think that unless DC is willing to invest that much time developing John, any kind of reset will have to happen fast and hard and be very memorable to have any lasting impact and recalibrate the notion of who he is in people's minds. For instance, John's been dealing with the ramifications of Xanshi for decades and that happened in a 4-issue mini that wasn't even about him. That's because it's a simple idea - he screwed up and a planet died. Other writers can pick up on the dramatic possibilities of that by reading one issue of a comic rather than doing a deep-dive into his history. Can it be done in the other direction? Give John one memorable, (heroic this time) re-defining moment that other writers can latch onto that feels true to the character.

Well, Kendra wants nothing to do with Hawkman any more so this ship could happen! If people are fine with John being with another Hawkgirl that's not Shayera.

Personally, it'd be weird for me to see John paired with Kendra just because of the cartoon. And it would only feed into the "People are always trying to make me into someone else" meta-tirade Kendra went on in her recent title.

[Redjack]

I think that unless DC is willing to invest that much time developing John, any kind of reset will have to happen fast and hard and be very memorable to have any lasting impact and recalibrate the notion of who he is in people's minds. For instance, John's been dealing with the ramifications of Xanshi for decades and that happened in a 4-issue mini that wasn't even about him. That's because it's a simple idea - he screwed up and a planet died. Other writers can pick up on the dramatic possibilities of that by reading one issue of a comic rather than doing a deep-dive into his history.

Though the ART was exceptional, that was a shitty story and part of the problem with what's been done with John over the years. That plot was written with GUY GARDNER in the John Stewart role but was changed to be John for -- reasons? John's character at that time was not as it was depicted in that story. Not even close. But the story needed him to be that way for the plot to move forward. It should have been Guy.

IMO: that story went a long way to breaking John for all time which is why I brought Xanshi back. I'm personally dead sick of that albatross– a cataclysm that was the result of the arrogance and failure of an "angry black man." Snore.

[j9ac9k]

That was a shitty story and part of the problem with what's been done with John over the years. That plot was written with GUY GARDNER in the John Stewart role but was changed to be John for -- reasons? John's character at that time was not as it was depicted in that story. Not even close. But the story needed him to be that way for the plot to move forward. It should have been Guy.

IMO: that story went a long way to breaking John for all time which is why I brought Xanshi back. I'm personally dead sick of that albatross– a cataclysm that was the result of the arrogance and failure of an "angry black man." Snore.

Since this is a John thread, I didn't include it but I was actually going to add that they should have used Guy for "CO" since that was more in character for him and him screwing up there would have been a better impetus for his change in character rather than a series of blows to the head. I actually don't think the story itself was shitty, but I agree it made no sense to use John in that role.

But that's beside the point. I was just noting that a writer doesn't need dozens of issues to impact the direction of a character moving forward in this round-robin style of serialized storytelling.

[Redjack]

Since this is a John thread, I didn't include it but I was actually going to add that they should have used Guy for "CO" since that was more in character for him and him screwing up there would have been a better impetus for his change in character rather than a series of blows to the head. I actually don't think the story itself was shitty, but I agree it made no sense to use John in that role.

But that's beside the point. I was just noting that a writer doesn't need dozens of issues to impact the direction of a character moving forward in this round-robin style of serialized storytelling.

The problem with creators and audiences now is basically the same. Both groups, predominantly, want things NOW when some of those things, by definition, take time.

John has no rogues of his own. Both PKJ and I tried to give him some. But they can't have any weight as Rogues unless we give them time to sit, and grow in the minds of fans. You cannot just snap your fingers and cut to the chase. Take a look at the Batman books. How many new Batman rogues have been created in the last ten years? How many does anyone care about?

And that's BATMAN.

John hasn't had anything like that sort of care and attention over the decades.

So, unless some writer gets a lottery win in their first 2 issues on the title (something no one can predict and no formula can ensure), John won't ever be given the sufficient space and time to solve these issues.

This stems, also, from the fact that he was created to be an ADJUNCT hero, secondary at best to the saga of Hal Jordan. Though my truncated run was not successful in extricating him from Hal's shadow and making John something unique, for him to be given the necessary attention and time either Hal has to go, for real (never happen) or John needs to be severed from the mass of the GL books and continuity for several years, at least.

This will also never happen.

[Frontier]

Personally, it'd be weird for me to see John paired with Kendra just because of the cartoon. And it would only feed into the "People are always trying to make me into someone else" meta-tirade Kendra went on in her recent title.

I'm a KendraxCarter shipper myself but I think John needs his own LI's.