Why do people hate current DC legacy characters so much?

[Dboi2001]

I see a lot of people complain about Miles Morales, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson being made as the permanent replacements for iconic characters but why do they ignore when Wally replaced Barry for 20 years with no sign of return until Final Crisis? In fact a lot of people wished Barry’s death stayed permanent because they feel it made his death more impactful on CoIE (personally I think even if resurrections happen, deaths can and still are impactful). What is the difference? Also should superheroes ever be permanently replaced or killed? Personally I am against it but what do you think?

[Will Evans]

I see a lot of people complain about Miles Morales, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson being made as the permanent replacements for iconic characters but why do they ignore when Wally replaced Barry for 20 years with no sign of return until Final Crisis? In fact a lot of people wished Barry’s death stayed permanent because they feel it made his death more impactful on CoIE (personally I think even if resurrections happen, deaths can and still are impactful). What is the difference? Also should superheroes ever be permanently replaced or killed? Personally I am against it but what do you think?

Well, for one, visually Wally began by wearing the exact costume as Barry. And since the Flash costume only opens at the mouth, Wally Flash looked just like Barry Flash.
Another is that Wally was Barry’s sidekick for 25 years, so he earned it in fans eyes.
Another is that by 1984, the New Teen Titans (of which Wally was on) was way more popular than the Flash comic.

[Dboi2001]

But wasn’t Wally written pretty poorly in that series basically being a stereotypical 1950s anti-communist right winger? Wally after he became the Flash acted nothing like NTT Wally

[Jon Clark]

But wasn’t Wally written pretty poorly in that series basically being a stereotypical 1950s anti-communist right winger? Wally after he became the Flash acted nothing like NTT Wally

But no one is holding up the pre-Waid Wally West when they talk about being Wally fans.

[Thor-Ul]

Oh boy, that is not right. Why do you think mark Waid wrote "The Return of Barry Allen"? People was still asking back for him. If Wally wouldn't had such a good writer as Waid backed him as Flash, I promise the voices of the people asking for barry Allen to return would had been louder. Now the reasons about Allen returning as Flash had no relation with the readers asking for him, but for motives related to other industries outside comic book publication.

Now, about the comics themselves, people always reject new characters replacing old ones, specially if it is about seemed to be permanent and specially if it is some new without relation to the previous character: in the 80s there was an army of extreme replacements for most traditional heroes and also there was resistance. Also, most of these replacements, in most cases, existed to show why the traditional heroes were on the right. Azrael was a psycho Batman who causes inocent lives to get lost, meanwhile Batman always put the safety of innocents over the punishment of the criminals. I am not a fan of Batman, but even me knows than save lives is more important to Batman than take them.
Another case is Kyle Rayner, strongly resisted by several fans, but who gathere his own fans. However in his case, it was another writer who made him more interesant than the main writer. of the Green Lantern title. But even so, Hal Jordan eventually returned.

There are circunstances when the replacements work, but those are particular circunstances: Think about how Barry Allen replaced Jay Garrick as the Flash. The advantage was there was an hiatus of several years, but still some readers asked for Jay to be back.

We could say than most of the acceptance by the readers of a new character being replaced depends a lot of the quality of the writing and how it is developted. Good writing is a very important factor in this proccess. Good writing will survive criticism and negativity. It can take time but it is its best defense.

[Doctor Know]

I see a lot of people complain about Miles Morales, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson being made as the permanent replacements for iconic characters but why do they ignore when Wally replaced Barry for 20 years with no sign of return until Final Crisis? In fact a lot of people wished Barry’s death stayed permanent because they feel it made his death more impactful on CoIE (personally I think even if resurrections happen, deaths can and still are impactful). What is the difference? Also should superheroes ever be permanently replaced or killed? Personally I am against it but what do you think?

The difference is certain legacy characters were handled well and pumped out good stories.

I doubt Wally was meant to completely supplant Barry for as long as he did (23 years), in as many places as he did (main Flash title, JLE, JLA, Superman TAS, Justice League/Justice League Unlimited, etc). If Wally’s post-Crisis titles had seen a lag in sales. Then Barry would’ve been revived to pick things up.


Same can be said for Kyle Rayner taking over GL solo for 9 years. It would’ve been an even 10, had it not been for the JL animated show and John Stewart being on it. DC brought John back and made him the main GL for the JL comic. Replacing Kyle on the team, while Kyle remained the lead of the GL book for 1 more year until Geoff Johns brought back Hal.


Please believe that Marvel and DC have no trouble hitting the panic button to restore the status quo if one of their new characters isn’t working.

Case in point: COIE saw Barry die and Wally be the Flash for 23 years. Emerald Twilight saw Hal turn evil and Kyle be GL for 9 years.

COIE saw Kara die and how many Supergirl variants did we go through before DC settled on bringing the original back?




Another issue is replacement characters coming off as largely derivative of their counterparts. See New Teen Titans rosters and modern Teen Titans.





With characters like Carol (since her promotion to Captain during Marvel Now), Kamala, and Captain Falcon; they all seem to be media creations. Where their attributes (race, sex, religion, etc) are their selling points to the consumer/audience. And not the quality and caliber of their stories. Carol and Kamala notoriously going through frequent relaunches to get their titles working. Add Jon Kent Superman and his pink haired boyfriend to the above list. I believe Jon said in an issue early in his run that fighting crime was a waste of time.



If this was comic mentality of 10-15 years ago, characters who aren’t working/making sales would be out in their ass or stuck in limbo. But now they all just hang around like unpaid bills.

[Username taken]

I think there's always been hostility towards legacy characters.

Wally West becoming The Flash is probably the most successful example of this because of how it was handled and the quality of stories that came out of it. Carol Danvers was Ms. Marvel for a long time, so it felt natural for her to become Captain Marvel (not to mention that Marvel tried to make Mar-Vell "happen" but his solo title was never successful, he ultimately became iconic because of his perma-death)

Guys like Kyle Rayner received a TON of hatred. Younger folk might not remember but H.E.A.T was a real thing, and it was over the top. Miles got a lot of hatred primarily because Ultimate Peter Parker was beloved, and he was killed for Miles to step-in. It took a movie and a video game for folks to accept Miles and even at that there's still hostility towards him. Miles current comic run being his best run also helps.

I think ultimately, fans just want what they are used to. Sometimes legacies work but it all comes down to execution. Aging up Bart Allen to become The Flash, no-no, Wally West becoming The Flash, yeah that made sense.

[superduperman]

Because Wally is a straight white man. Yes, it really is about that.

[skyvolt2000]

With characters like Carol (since her promotion to Captain during Marvel Now), Kamala, and Captain Falcon; they all seem to be media creations. Where their attributes (race, sex, religion, etc) are their selling points to the consumer/audience. And not the quality and caliber of their stories. Carol and Kamala notoriously going through frequent relaunches to get their titles working. Add Jon Kent Superman and his pink haired boyfriend to the above list. I believe Jon said in an issue early in his run that fighting crime was a waste of time.

That is NOT true.

Not true at ALL.

Kamala wasn't expected to last beyond issue 7 of her book. G Willow Wilson will tell you that. You don't last to the tune of over 80 solo issues based on your race.
There was a reason her and Carol's trades sold as well as they did for a long time.

Carol is on volume 7 as Cap Marvel.
Kamal is on volume 4.

Daredevil is on volume 7.
Cap America is on volume 11.
Moon Knight is on volume 9.
Punisher is on volume 13.

How did we miss THOSE relaunches???
Including the Marvel company wide relaunches that all books had at the same time? The 4 times they did it.

Where their attributes (race, sex, religion, etc) are their selling points to the consumer/audience. And not the quality and caliber of their stories.

Like Emma Frost???
Like Dick Grayson??
Like Supergirl?
Like Catwoman?
How much cheesecake art have those guys produced? Especially Emma?

If this was comic mentality of 10-15 years ago, characters who aren’t working/making sales would be out in their ass or stuck in limbo. But now they all just hang around like unpaid bills.

15 years ago is 2008.

Carol has over 150 solo issues since 2006.
Kamala is at 90 since 2011.

That is more than Kyle Rayner. More than Ted Kord, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Cyborg, Starfire, Adam Strange and Peacemaker. All of whom have had solos or duos that didn't sell.
Folks not making sales-so why are they still around?

Carol and Kamala PAID their bills.

Cyborg "push" started at the same time as Miles Morales's arrival in 2011.
Miles will hit 150 solo issues in 2025.
Cyborg will need 10 years to catch up as he only has 39 in that same time frame.

Funny these hated legacies are doing better than the original characters that so many scream deserve books.

[j9ac9k]

Guys like Kyle Rayner received a TON of hatred. Younger folk might not remember but H.E.A.T was a real thing, and it was over the top.

I do remember, and while I'm clearly biased, it seemed to me that while there certainly were some haters, a lot of Hal fans were mostly POed about how Hal was treated and wanted him back, then some Kyle fans who felt threatened starting telling Hal fans to stfu and stop complaining, that Hal's time was done, he was boring, etc. so things escalated from there where lines were drawn and people were just taking shots at the two characters rather than discuss how they felt about what DC was doing.

[astro@work]

I think a lot of the resistance in recent years comes from the characters being introduced and going on to assume the mantle too quickly.

Damien has had a long slow introduction into the bat mythos. There was a long history of multiple Robins, so he being the next didn't feel too odd.

Jon (who I like) was aged up too quickly and assumed the mantle too soon. Fans were still mad about him being aged up too quickly when he was already thrust into the Superman role.
Jon is honestly a fave of mine BUT like many other fans I was hugely disappointed that he was robbed of many years of stories as Superboy.
Similarly, The Super Sons was a hugely charming series with years of potential...but we got only two years out of it before TPTB (Bendis?)
rushed him into unnecessary rapid aging....and for what???

Yara as Wonder Girl was introduced far too quickly. I like her as well, but did we really need a 2nd WG? Cassie is a fan favorite and Yara had no time for fans to warm up to her.

I am all for the slow aging and forward progression of characters (example: Clark, Bruce, Diana, Dick, Wally, Donna). This is the reason I've always loved JSA and the Legion,
they aren't stuck in permanent status quo. But we went from years and years of status quo to too much ageing all at once.

[Username taken]

I do remember, and while I'm clearly biased, it seemed to me that while there certainly were some haters, a lot of Hal fans were mostly POed about how Hal was treated and wanted him back, then some Kyle fans who felt threatened starting telling Hal fans to stfu and stop complaining, that Hal's time was done, he was boring, etc. so things escalated from there where lines were drawn and people were just taking shots at the two characters rather than discuss how they felt about what DC was doing.

Yeah, it was a real war.

And I agree most of those guys were pissed at how Hal got shafted (see what I did there..lol). Looking back at it almost 30 years after, the way DC got rid of Hal was...something to say the least.

[Primal Slayer]

The internet didn't really exist when Jay/Barry were replaced or Kara.

Some also have issues with a poc replacing a white character.

[Digifiend]

But no one is holding up the pre-Waid Wally West when they talk about being Wally fans.

Yeah, he was written as a total jerk by Baron, Messner-Loebs did work to redeem him, though it has it's bad points (his Mom keeps calling his girlfriend a gold-digger, when the only one who's that is her). Most fans consider Waid taking over as when it got good. It's certainly the point the wider family showed up.

That is NOT true.

Not true at ALL.

Kamala wasn't expected to last beyond issue 7 of her book. G Willow Wilson will tell you that. You don't last to the tune of over 80 solo issues based on your race.
There was a reason her and Carol's trades sold as well as they did for a long time.

Carol is on volume 7 as Cap Marvel.
Kamal is on volume 4.

Daredevil is on volume 7.
Cap America is on volume 11.
Moon Knight is on volume 9.
Punisher is on volume 13.

How did we miss THOSE relaunches???
Including the Marvel company wide relaunches that all books had at the same time? The 4 times they did it.


15 years ago is 2008.

Carol has over 150 solo issues since 2006.
Kamala is at 90 since 2011.

That is more than Kyle Rayner. More than Ted Kord, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice, Cyborg, Starfire, Adam Strange and Peacemaker. All of whom have had solos or duos that didn't sell.
Folks not making sales-so why are they still around?

Carol and Kamala PAID their bills.

Kamala's had more than four volumes. Ms. Marvel Vol 3, Ms. Marvel Vol 4 (Vols 1 and 2 were Carol), both by Wilson. Magnificent Ms. Marvel by Saladin Ahmed. Ms. Marvel: Beyond The Limit. Dark Web: Ms. Marvel (tie-in to a Spider-Man event when she was in Peter's supporting cast). Ms. Marvel: The New Mutant. And the upcoming Ms. Marvel: Mutant Menace. Three ongoings and four minis. Seven volumes in total. She debuted in 2013, by the way, so those 90 issues are in 10 years, not 12. You're right that Wilson didn't expect her to take off like she did. She's the second most successful new Marvel character of the 2010s, after Miles Morales, and definitely here to stay. I would expect her to get her eighth book, her fourth ongoing, as part of the X-Men relaunch in summer.

I think a lot of the resistance in recent years comes from the characters being introduced and going on to assume the mantle too quickly.

Damien has had a long slow introduction into the bat mythos. There was a long history of multiple Robins, so he being the next didn't feel too odd.

Jon (who I like) was aged up too quickly and assumed the mantle too soon. Fans were still mad about him being aged up too quickly when he was already thrust into the Superman role.
Jon is honestly a fave of mine BUT like many other fans I was hugely disappointed that he was robbed of many years of stories as Superboy.
Similarly, The Super Sons was a hugely charming series with years of potential...but we got only two years out of it before TPTB (Bendis?)
rushed him into unnecessary rapid aging....and for what???

Yara as Wonder Girl was introduced far too quickly. I like her as well, but did we really need a 2nd WG? Cassie is a fan favorite and Yara had no time for fans to warm up to her.

I am all for the slow aging and forward progression of characters (example: Clark, Bruce, Diana, Dick, Wally, Donna). This is the reason I've always loved JSA and the Legion,
they aren't stuck in permanent status quo. But we went from years and years of status quo to too much ageing all at once.

Yeah, Jon was aged up too soon, for the abortive 5G relaunch - that's on editoral, Bendis just took advantage of it to have a Superboy in both Legion of Super-Heroes and Young Justice. He's stepping on Conner's toes now. He's probably saved Conner, an infamous flirt, from being turned gay though. There are folks who think he should be Tim's boyfriend.

As for Yara, I like her, but I think she should've been younger. Never made sense that she was 21 when Cassie was still being treated as a teenager (though based on Damian's aging, she should now be 21, as Tim was seven years older than Damian pre-Flashpoint, and she's Tim's age). Yara's story could've still played out the same if she was 18, but she'd be younger than Cassie, as a successor to a mantle should be. As for Cassie, personally I think the solution for her would be to transition her to a new identity. Fury is available, since the previous one was killed off in pre-Flashpoint JSA.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I see a lot of people complain about Miles Morales, Carol Danvers and Sam Wilson being made as the permanent replacements for iconic characters but why do they ignore when Wally replaced Barry for 20 years with no sign of return until Final Crisis? In fact a lot of people wished Barry’s death stayed permanent because they feel it made his death more impactful on CoIE (personally I think even if resurrections happen, deaths can and still are impactful). What is the difference? Also should superheroes ever be permanently replaced or killed? Personally I am against it but what do you think?

Fans tend to dislike change and the more recent the changes are- the more dislike they get. I bet most of the original haters for Miles were older fans than kids on the playground.