Why do people hate current DC legacy characters so much?

[Digifiend]

Yeah, just wanted to point this out.

Every single Marvel title is just on double digit numbering because all their titles keep getting relaunched.

Captain Marvel's last run was actually one of Marvel's longer running ongoing. It got to around 50 issues,.

Exactly 50 issues, yes.

I don't think that is it. I think so many "Legacy" characters are just introduced wrong. Look at Jim Rhodes when he took over as Iron Man. Rhodey had been apart of the book for many years and people knew and liked him. Compare that to Riri Williams who just showed up and a few issues latter is as smart as Tony and has her own hero ID. He had earned his place in Iron Man lore while she was just shoved in. People don't get the time to actually care about these characters before they take up a mantle.

Yeah, Bendis botched Riri's intro, she took over the title too soon. Jim Zub in Champions (where she got a unique costume instead of a feminine version of Tony's) and Eve Ewing in her later solo book redeemed her though, by fleshing her out and removing her reliance on Tony (her original AI was based on him, but now she uses one called Natalie based on a friend who died in her backstory).

Problems:

1. New Characters (nowadays) get to powerful just from beginning, while other generations had to grow into their roles:
Conner Kent vs Jonathan Samuel Kent

2. Characters who achieved a lot in their lifes get pushed aside for new characters who are only pushed
Conner Kent vs Jonathan Samuel Kent
Conner was the only guy who was able to fight against Superboy Prime WITHOUT using red sun etc. and sacrificied his life, but now he is treated like a complete rookie

3. DC didnt manage to set the ages of characters and their Codenames right:
Flash Family is a good example:
Wallace West is still around and has the most prestigious Codename (Kid Flash), while Bart had to go back to Impulse and Irey had to get a new Code-name and Costume

Wallace West should have got a new Codename (AND another design) to make him stand out more than just being a Kid Flash
Both (Irey West and Bart Allen) would have been better choices for Kid Flash than Wallace

Irey is a cool character, BUT I HATE the boring design of her current costume

Its also annoying that Jonathan/Conner, Bart/Wallace... are seemingly similar in age, it would be better if Conner/Bart/Cassie would be CLEARLY OLDER than Jonathan/Wallace/Yara.....

Wallace is fine now, but he technically shouldn't exist at all. He was created as a rebooted version of Wally West in New 52, and later retconned to being his cousin. Before Flashpoint, Irey had taken Bart's Impulse identity. They'd have probably ended up swapping identities had New 52 not happened. Irey's Thunderheart alias was only created because Wallace existing forced the brought back from erasure Bart back to Impulse, meaning when Irey also came back she needed something new - a running gag in Adams' Flash run until she decided on her new name in the One Minute War arc.

I've always thought Yara was too old, though I like her apart from that. Her story could've played out exactly the same if she was 18 instead of 21, and she wouldn't be older than Cassie, who (along with Conner, Tim and Bart) SHOULD be 21 by now. Never made sense that the new Wonder Girl was older than her predecessor. Funny thing is, an even newer character, Lizzie Prince, being from 20 years in the future, would have made sense as a new Wonder Girl, but her codename is Trinity. Surely both Cassie and Yara would've changed their codenames by Lizzie's time?

[marvelprince]

YouTubers like ThinkingCritical, YellowFlash and EVS mostly target comic book readers around their generation which I assume that's why your friend was a fan of them.

Most new readers try to get into comics (from the big Two) from movies and other media and run away when they realise it's more work than getting into manga and they don't even stick around long enough to meet the anti-SJW crowd.

He was a long time fan of EVS and followed him on socials. I also ended up following a lot of those channels cause that's what YouTube recommended when I searched for a comics and it was a while before I realized there was more out there.

Comicsgaters are not the main problem and acting as though people think they are is an easy strawman by those willfully ignorant to the larger issue of systemic racism. The ham-fisted rhetoric of the left doesn't help because they make it easy to dismiss the idea outright by those who aren't racist, yet refuse to even consider their potential culpability in perpetuating an unjust status quo. I'm not trying to finger point - I'm proposing that the back-and-forth finger pointing and defensiveness has resulted in a shutdown of discussion about the larger societal issues. Worse, the adversarial nature of the discourse has eroded sympathy towards addressing the issue, let alone trying to find a solution.

And yes, an example of all this has been how some of these legacy characters have been introduced, and the resulting reactions.

Well said. CG is a symptom of the problem, not a cause but if we villianize everyone who has complaints about the status quo we won't ever get around to addressing the real issues.

[marhawkman]

You made valid points, I agree with you, but not to be at their (low) dirty level, don't not toss everyone under a banner, simply because someone has no interest. I know it is not easy and easier said than done. I fear that by doing that we are just pushing people away.

That's the real issue with the "comics gate" thing.... people wanna make it a bipolar "us vs them" narrative and skip any sort of discussion of the subject matter. It makes the whole idea of discussion futile when people make up what they want to reply to.

[skyvolt2000]

Exactly 50 issues, yes.

Yeah, Bendis botched Riri's intro, she took over the title too soon. Jim Zub in Champions (where she got a unique costume instead of a feminine version of Tony's) and Eve Ewing in her later solo book redeemed her though, by fleshing her out and removing her reliance on Tony (her original AI was based on him, but now she uses one called Natalie based on a friend who died in her backstory).

Riri NEVER called herself Ironman while the anti SJW crowd attacked her meanwhile Dr Doom did call himself that to no pushback.

The real issue should have been why NOT use Rhody's niece and let her follow his footsteps. At least you would have had someone link to Iron Man family and you had a narrative to use her as Ironheart.

Well said. CG is a symptom of the problem, not a cause but if we villianize everyone who has complaints about the status quo we won't ever get around to addressing the real issues.

Well we still can't address the issues. Because some folks don't want those issues to be addressed. Which is why they target CERTAIN POC and LGBTQA+ lead books.

[j9ac9k]

Well we still can't address the issues. Because some folks don't want those issues to be addressed. Which is why they target CERTAIN POC and LGBTQA+ lead books.

Those folks have a different idea about what the "real issues" are.

[Triniking1234]

Riri NEVER called herself Ironman while the anti SJW crowd attacked her meanwhile Dr Doom did call himself that to no pushback.

The real issue should have been why NOT use Rhody's niece and let her follow his footsteps. At least you would have had someone link to Iron Man family and you had a narrative to use her as Ironheart.

The book obviously marketed her as Iron Man.

Also why would Bendis use a character someone else created when his was obviously going to catch on?

[j9ac9k]

The book obviously marketed her as Iron Man.

Also why would Bendis use a character someone else created when his was obviously going to catch on?

Blah, blah -- this is the DC boards, blah blah....

[Triniking1234]

Blah, blah -- this is the DC boards, blah blah....

True.

A legacy character I don't understand is Red Canary. Like did DC want to put a new character that not only didn't have a story with the characters she's based on and is introduced when those characters are "dead". No way she was going to catch on like Mia and Emiko. Just bring those two back.

[marhawkman]

True.

A legacy character I don't understand is Red Canary. Like did DC want to put a new character that not only didn't have a story with the characters she's based on and is introduced when those characters are "dead". No way she was going to catch on like Mia and Emiko. Just bring those two back.

Yeah, this is a common issue. Why make a new character to... do the same thing as the old character? Same applies to Yara... the differences between her and previous Wonder Girls is mostly aesthetic.

[Morgoth]

Because everyone wants to leave their own mark on a character's history + perhaps they hope that their character will be adapted in outside media.

[The Darknight Detective]

Blah, blah -- this is the DC boards, blah blah....

Yes. What happens at Marvel is irrelevant here.

[Goldrake]

Comicsgaters are not the main problem and acting as though people think they are is an easy strawman by those willfully ignorant to the larger issue of systemic racism. The ham-fisted rhetoric of the left doesn't help because they make it easy to dismiss the idea outright by those who aren't racist, yet refuse to even consider their potential culpability in perpetuating an unjust status quo. I'm not trying to finger point - I'm proposing that the back-and-forth finger pointing and defensiveness has resulted in a shutdown of discussion about the larger societal issues. Worse, the adversarial nature of the discourse has eroded sympathy towards addressing the issue, let alone trying to find a solution.

And yes, an example of all this has been how some of these legacy characters have been introduced, and the resulting reactions.

I agree, those caught in the middle are giving up about having about even having a constructive discussion on any subject.

Most new readers try to get into comics (from the big Two) from movies and other media and run away when they realise it's more work than getting into manga and they don't even stick around long enough to meet the anti-SJW crowd.

With all the movies we had about superheroes, comics should be booming. Movie blockbusters don't translate into new readers. TBH neither does the industry try and make it easy for someone to get into comics, as most comics have nothing in common with what the movie they watched. A prime example was Aquaman in 2018, any potential new readers could find nothing that connected with the movie they watched. None of the characters they saw in the movie appeared in comics except Arthur who was amnesiac. Which brings up the subject how comics don't synergize with movies.

[Zero Hunter]

Yes. What happens at Marvel is irrelevant here.

Not really. It is the same issue usually created by the same writers. Just dropping a new character in with no real thought to it.

[Thor-Ul]

Yes. What happens at Marvel is irrelevant here.

Unless it serves a s point of comparision.

[Thor-Ul]

Because everyone wants to leave their own mark on a character's history + perhaps they hope that their character will be adapted in outside media.

Not only that. It is also for different motives: certain characters are left assocaited to eras or creators than new editors want to left behind and others want to take advantage of new tendencies of the moment. Cleary a good editor could make the creators to reinvent a older character in a new role or name but that also is a risk because a lot of readers like the characters in the way they are, even if sometimes they struggle to gain the attention of bigger audiences.