Why do people hate current DC legacy characters so much?

[Dboi2001]

As Kid Flash? Sure because Wally hasn’t been Kid Flash in 40 years. But the current Flash comic has Wally back as the main flash

[Dred]

I should’ve said status quo of the silver age. I don’t remember the exact quote or place but I remember Didio saying he didn’t like Wally because he was too complicated and from a perspective I can understand what he means. You don’t need to know about Jay to appreciate Barry but the opposite is true for Wally. The New 52 was mostly resetting the status quo to the Silver Age to make things more “accessible” to new readers

Except it isn't because Kyle Rayner and Tim Drake and Nightwing and Maxine Baker, and Cassie Sandsmark, and blah blah blah all exist, so it was just clearly picking and choosing favorites. This is the same man who said Wally West has no value as a character because of the things you list, then said he loves the Super Sons and wanted to do more with them and push them.

He's just a hypocrite, justifying his actions after the fact with thin arguments. He's an old dude who didn't care about stuff like erasing a bunch of minorities when he did it. He did it because he liked Barry more so he put Barry in the lead, simple as that. He killed off Wally and his family within a year of coming to power in Infinite Crisis without even a thought of a hard reboot being in the discussion, and only brought him back because his follow up was so catastrophic as to be the most legendary failure in the franchise's history. Using the New 52's reboot as an excuse is just one of his many lies on the subject.

It boggles me how many people just take Didio at his word. A minor bit of looking into it dispels it as smoke and mirrors.

[Goldrake]

Yes, narrativelly, the way how manga industrie works is different in the sense is more diverse thematically,adn have different target audiences. But also mind you, not every manga have the same impact in the different culture. And manga alos is capable of integrate tother concepts inside their narratives. What is My hero academy but their own interpretation of the superhero phenomenon?

Europe have its own comics culture and traditions, to its own ebb and flow. And we must agree also than manga and its derivatives actually are oversaturing the market. I think maybe they are winning by its volumen of production and cheaper prices than for quality only.

If something I could agree we have seen the decline of the superhero figure, which could be something good. USA have this fixed idea than comics means superheroes when it can be more ample in content. Maybe instead DC (and Marvel) should stop tryng to appeal more audiences to like superhero comics and instead made books than like other audiences.
I mean, that is the cause of these new legacy characters: new audiences. But that is in ths supposed true than the new audiences like superheroes, and maybe that is not the case.

Manga is not winning through quantity but mainly through quality. They have some great mangas that probably in the USA people have never even heard of. In Europe a whole generation grew up first with Go Nagai Robotic series and later with mangas like Rose of Versailles, Captain Tsubasa, City Hunter, Cat's Eye, Lupin. The quality is awesome, Rose of Versailles is a masterpiece. I doubt in the USA someone can currently create something even close. We often hear that politics in comics have always been present, you don't find that often in manga. With the political divide in the USA I doubt any author could make Rose of Versailles without letting their own political views into their work. This manga makes you feel for both the common people and for the monarchs.
Not to mention that many of these mangas are often made in animation series, here again the quality of Japanese anime is light years superior to the animation in the USA. It always puzzled me how they can achieve such quality and we lack so behind.

We have an advantage when it comes to movies, Japanese mangas when they make them into movies with real actors mostly suck. Yet comic Industry has never been able to attract attention towards it from the Superhero movies. The lack of synergy is one of the issues why this happens.

A major problem for American comics is that they are made for the American public, when they need to apply to beyond the borders of the USA if they want to compete. Now that has some problems that need to be overcome before this can achieved. Mainly superhero comics arrive in certain countries six months late besides problems of translation. Trying to buy from US sellers is not feasible anymore due to exorbitant shipping costs, Since I moved overseas I have experienced this, just yesterday I tried to buy a back issue comic that cost $4 and the shipping was $40. Makes no sense buying it. I am sort of lucky as I get my regular floppies from the comic shop I buy from, about 10/15 days after release in USA. He won't back order for me, as he buys only from a sub agent.

Digital is the only option for certain countries, but many are resorting to pirate sites, why pay when you can get the same free? Also from what I have seen Comic shops overseas don't stock lots of Superhero comics, DC even less.

As for new audiences you always have to try for that, yet, once when each and one of us got into these comics weren't we new audiences also at the time? and those before us? These characters have been around for decades after all. They appealed to us.
Creating new characters is a way forward just don't limit it to a new Batman etc create something which is really new. Which not only appeals to a new audience but which may attract even the current ones. We are stuck with a set of characters and the new ones must be only their replacements. I see it as stagnation of ideas and creativity. Same applies for villains, we always have to be the same bunch.

I know that there will always be resistance from some fans about introducing something new, but this was always the case, how many times we saw people protesting for a slight change to a characters costume. Some years ago many fans would resist the idea a hero getting married or having kids while others wanted that. That Legacy characters are not liked by all is no surprise, after all these years you still find people who don't like female superheroes who have been around for a long time.

[skyvolt2000]

I should’ve said status quo of the silver age. I don’t remember the exact quote or place but I remember Didio saying he didn’t like Wally because he was too complicated and from a perspective I can understand what he means. You don’t need to know about Jay to appreciate Barry but the opposite is true for Wally.

We saw a Justice League cartoon that did not mention Hal nor Barry with John or Wally. Both of them were just there.

What was so complicated about Wally that he had to be erased and replaced with a racist black stereotype? Because Wallace was that offensive when he showed up and it literally took Priest to make him interesting in Deathstroke.

Stephanie and Cass both had other IDS than Batgirl yet both got erased because Dan claimed they were TOXIC. NOBODY could us them and everyone TRIED. We saw those two edited out Lil Gotham and LOW SELLER Batwing.

How does Nightwing & Tim's generation make Bruce look OLD??? DAMIAN-Batman's son makes his gang look OLDER.
Why does everyone else who had kids lose theirs but Batman and Superman can keep their sons?

If Wally is that complicated-how does Batman go through 4 Robins in 5 years?

John Stewart had a WIFE and family. It took dang near 30 years to see his mother? His sister? We are still missing his granny and brother. Has his wife been mentioned?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I should’ve said status quo of the silver age. I don’t remember the exact quote or place but I remember Didio saying he didn’t like Wally because he was too complicated and from a perspective I can understand what he means. You don’t need to know about Jay to appreciate Barry but the opposite is true for Wally. The New 52 was mostly resetting the status quo to the Silver Age to make things more “accessible” to new readers

I understand but the new 52 didn't commit to the idea when they kept the robins and Green Lantern. Its like you made a table with uneven legs. A ful reboot like the Ultimates would've been preffereable.

[Thor-Ul]

Manga is not winning through quantity but mainly through quality. They have some great mangas that probably in the USA people have never even heard of. In Europe a whole generation grew up first with Go Nagai Robotic series and later with mangas like Rose of Versailles, Captain Tsubasa, City Hunter, Cat's Eye, Lupin. The quality is awesome, Rose of Versailles is a masterpiece. I doubt in the USA someone can currently create something even close. We often hear that politics in comics have always been present, you don't find that often in manga. With the political divide in the USA I doubt any author could make Rose of Versailles without letting their own political views into their work. This manga makes you feel for both the common people and for the monarchs.
Not to mention that many of these mangas are often made in animation series, here again the quality of Japanese anime is light years superior to the animation in the USA. It always puzzled me how they can achieve such quality and we lack so behind.

We have an advantage when it comes to movies, Japanese mangas when they make them into movies with real actors mostly suck. Yet comic Industry has never been able to attract attention towards it from the Superhero movies. The lack of synergy is one of the issues why this happens.

A major problem for American comics is that they are made for the American public, when they need to apply to beyond the borders of the USA if they want to compete. Now that has some problems that need to be overcome before this can achieved. Mainly superhero comics arrive in certain countries six months late besides problems of translation. Trying to buy from US sellers is not feasible anymore due to exorbitant shipping costs, Since I moved overseas I have experienced this, just yesterday I tried to buy a back issue comic that cost $4 and the shipping was $40. Makes no sense buying it. I am sort of lucky as I get my regular floppies from the comic shop I buy from, about 10/15 days after release in USA. He won't back order for me, as he buys only from a sub agent.

Digital is the only option for certain countries, but many are resorting to pirate sites, why pay when you can get the same free? Also from what I have seen Comic shops overseas don't stock lots of Superhero comics, DC even less.

As for new audiences you always have to try for that, yet, once when each and one of us got into these comics weren't we new audiences also at the time? and those before us? These characters have been around for decades after all. They appealed to us.
Creating new characters is a way forward just don't limit it to a new Batman etc create something which is really new. Which not only appeals to a new audience but which may attract even the current ones. We are stuck with a set of characters and the new ones must be only their replacements. I see it as stagnation of ideas and creativity. Same applies for villains, we always have to be the same bunch.

I know that there will always be resistance from some fans about introducing something new, but this was always the case, how many times we saw people protesting for a slight change to a characters costume. Some years ago many fans would resist the idea a hero getting married or having kids while others wanted that. That Legacy characters are not liked by all is no surprise, after all these years you still find people who don't like female superheroes who have been around for a long time.

I say it is a quantity more than a quality. Also how easy and quickly they are easly adapted to other media (leavin in its wake an abuse of the working conditions than would scare any US creator). Also it is not the great quality but the diversity of thems what gives manga an advantage, but you can see than manga is very formulaic in their story telling structure. and also following tnedencies. Just look how now there are so many isekais. I condced e than manga have a very different way to show and present information and documentation, but there are aspects than really are tiresome. You can say even than manga is more industrail produced than US comics and that also makes the editorial to prefer them: they are cheaper to made.
manga is the same than the UDS comic industry with its advantages or dissavantages, but not inherently "superior". And don't make talk of anime and their eternal scenes of freeze planes to make less planes for second. A trait of anime born of the need to make the animation cheaper.

[Refrax5]

We saw a Justice League cartoon that did not mention Hal nor Barry with John or Wally. Both of them were just there.

What was so complicated about Wally that he had to be erased and replaced with a racist black stereotype? Because Wallace was that offensive when he showed up and it literally took Priest to make him interesting in Deathstroke.

Stephanie and Cass both had other IDS than Batgirl yet both got erased because Dan claimed they were TOXIC. NOBODY could us them and everyone TRIED. We saw those two edited out Lil Gotham and LOW SELLER Batwing.

How does Nightwing & Tim's generation make Bruce look OLD??? DAMIAN-Batman's son makes his gang look OLDER.
Why does everyone else who had kids lose theirs but Batman and Superman can keep their sons?

If Wally is that complicated-how does Batman go through 4 Robins in 5 years?

John Stewart had a WIFE and family. It took dang near 30 years to see his mother? His sister? We are still missing his granny and brother. Has his wife been mentioned?

John is fairly easy to do without Hal. Even so, they transplanted certain pieces of Hal's mythology onto John (much like they did with Kyle in the Superman show).

As for Wally, the animated version is Wally but with Barry's origin and mythology grafted onto him. Why? Because Wally's backstory IS complicated and not especially accessible to new readers. It was one of the hardest things for me to understand when I started reading Flash comics. Barry had a pretty simple origin and setup. Wally had this weird origin of being the nephew of Barry's love interest who for some reason had the exact same freak accident happen to him, had a long history as a sidekick and Titan before he ever became the Flash. I had a hard time even getting what his personality was. In the cartoon, he was this lovable, immature goofball. In the comics, he seemed like that sometimes. Other times he was serious. Sometimes he seemed nice like Barry. Other times he seemed like a cranky jerk.

I love Wally, but he was a difficult character for me to figure out and warm up to when I started reading comics. I was only familiar with the 90s show and the animated version when I started reading and those were much more accessible.

The animated versions aren't a great example because they were altered so significantly from their comic selves to be accessible. Cartoon John Stewart was almost an entirely different character from who he was in the comics.

[Triniking1234]

I'm not sure why you're making Wally sound so complicated. He got his powers the same way as his mentor and he was on a team with other sidekicks? That's it? Might as well say Nightwing is complicated. His depiction in other media is different from the books? Yeah that never happens.

[Goldrake]

I say it is a quantity more than a quality. Also how easy and quickly they are easly adapted to other media (leavin in its wake an abuse of the working conditions than would scare any US creator). Also it is not the great quality but the diversity of thems what gives manga an advantage, but you can see than manga is very formulaic in their story telling structure. and also following tnedencies. Just look how now there are so many isekais. I condced e than manga have a very different way to show and present information and documentation, but there are aspects than really are tiresome. You can say even than manga is more industrail produced than US comics and that also makes the editorial to prefer them: they are cheaper to made.
manga is the same than the UDS comic industry with its advantages or dissavantages, but not inherently "superior". And don't make talk of anime and their eternal scenes of freeze planes to make less planes for second. A trait of anime born of the need to make the animation cheaper.

If working conditions are that bad it would easy to bring them over, after all American comics have been employing artists from Brazil, Portugal etc
Mangas are not quantity over quality, otherwise they would not be that successful. People are not stupid, they are leaving superhero comics behind them even because quality has fallen to low standards.

As I said, following suggestions of some European friends I started reading manga as well. Personally I am at the beginning on books suggested, the ones I read, they are all awesome. Some are masterpieces. These are mangas made in the 70's or 80's. Still have a long way to catch up.
If you never read them how can you claim they are quantity over quality? Mind it some of the best mangas haven't even made it to the US. Manga is not a trend of the recent years, they have been making fans for decades throughout the world. Years ago when some warned that they will breakthrough even in the US, people in the industry and comic readers ridiculed them.
When you watch an american animation that reaches the level of Princess Mononoke let me know. But this OT.

[Jon Clark]

I'm not sure why you're making Wally sound so complicated. He got his powers the same way as his mentor and he was on a team with other sidekicks? That's it? Might as well say Nightwing is complicated. His depiction in other media is different from the books? Yeah that never happens.

Uhm, Nightwing is complicated. You have to have a writer either play down the Bat-connection or somehow make Dick old enough to be a hero without aging Bruce. You have to have a character with a backstory involving being a teen hero with one name and now an adult hero with a different name. You have to make Dick distinct as a Robin (he's not Tim/Damian) and distinct from being both Robin or Batman (he's not a sidekick anymore and he isn't just Bruce-lite).

Compare that with Cyborg who just has to make sense as his own character. He isn't trying to be a variation on Robotman or trying to be an outgrowth of a whole heroic career prior to becoming Cyborg (see Beast Boy/Changeling.

So like Refrax said for current original Wally:
1) Origin must take into account prior Flash (Barry)
2)Backstory has career as teen hero prior to current career
3)Now needs to have a personality that makes him distinct from Barry and from younger self (shows growth from when he was Kid Flash)

Now if you have a clean slate take (Justice League cartoon) you can skip those 3 steps, but only by making him the only Flash and shortening his career to never having been Kid Flash.

[Doctor Kent Nelson]

Funny you didn’t put the Inza version here.

The Inza run was great and it didn't alienate Kent by "killing" him off!

[Garrac]

I find very funny how Yara Flor was hated by a lot of wondefans until Tom King started writing her and suddenly she has a whole fandom defending how a character 3 years old must be portrayed.

[Triniking1234]

Uhm, Nightwing is complicated. You have to have a writer either play down the Bat-connection or somehow make Dick old enough to be a hero without aging Bruce. You have to have a character with a backstory involving being a teen hero with one name and now an adult hero with a different name. You have to make Dick distinct as a Robin (he's not Tim/Damian) and distinct from being both Robin or Batman (he's not a sidekick anymore and he isn't just Bruce-lite).

Compare that with Cyborg who just has to make sense as his own character. He isn't trying to be a variation on Robotman or trying to be an outgrowth of a whole heroic career prior to becoming Cyborg (see Beast Boy/Changeling.

So like Refrax said for current original Wally:
1) Origin must take into account prior Flash (Barry)
2)Backstory has career as teen hero prior to current career
3)Now needs to have a personality that makes him distinct from Barry and from younger self (shows growth from when he was Kid Flash)

Now if you have a clean slate take (Justice League cartoon) you can skip those 3 steps, but only by making him the only Flash and shortening his career to never having been Kid Flash.

How is Nightwing complicated?
Some kid loses his parents during Batman's second year on the job, Batman adopts him and makes him his sidekick. He teamed up with the other sidekicks his age for other adventures. When he got old enough to go to college, he was independent from Batman. He drops Robin cuz Batman gets another one and becomes Nightwing.

Do people not grow up?

[Doctor Kent Nelson]

Do people not grow up?

Well... not some people from reading some comments

[married guy]

Uhm, Nightwing is complicated. You have to have a writer either play down the Bat-connection or somehow make Dick old enough to be a hero without aging Bruce. You have to have a character with a backstory involving being a teen hero with one name and now an adult hero with a different name. You have to make Dick distinct as a Robin (he's not Tim/Damian) and distinct from being both Robin or Batman (he's not a sidekick anymore and he isn't just Bruce-lite).

Compare that with Cyborg who just has to make sense as his own character. He isn't trying to be a variation on Robotman or trying to be an outgrowth of a whole heroic career prior to becoming Cyborg (see Beast Boy/Changeling.

So like Refrax said for current original Wally:
1) Origin must take into account prior Flash (Barry)
2)Backstory has career as teen hero prior to current career
3)Now needs to have a personality that makes him distinct from Barry and from younger self (shows growth from when he was Kid Flash)

Now if you have a clean slate take (Justice League cartoon) you can skip those 3 steps, but only by making him the only Flash and shortening his career to never having been Kid Flash.

Wally and Dick are as complicated as you want to make them.
Essentially, they can be boiled down to this:

Nightwing is Batman's first Robin, now grown up.
Wally was hit by electrified chemicals as a kid making him a speedster. Just like his uncle, the previous Flash.