Please give me your thoughts on the Clone Saga

[Ubauba01]

At this point in time, I have read most but not yet all of it. Albeit I do know some of the story elements from the issues I haven't yet read.

I can see why it was disliked, for one thing, at the time it started, it would have been very hard to get the full story, as the overall storyline jumps from title to title and there are often even multiple multi-part story arcs running at the same time.

Secondly, this is something that affected the Spider-Man titles for years. So, plenty of people must have gotten tired of it at some point.

Then of course there was the revelation that Peter is the real clone and not Ben.

But would it have worked as its own isolated story? I think it would have considering how popular many of the big players from the Clone Saga are.

Also, there was a miniseries from the 2009 that redid the whole Clone Saga story. It shortened it and didn't kill of Ben Reilly and baby May. IIRC, Doc Ock survived as well in the 2009 version, but I could be misremembering. At the end, Ben Reilly eventually gets back on the road, basically back to where he started at the beginning of the story, I guess.

[Tuck]

It's the point where 616 Spider-Man "broke" to an extent.

It hasn't prevented good stories and good runs, but I think it's a pretty good dividing line between a coherent, reasonably grounded timeline and an increasing tangle of a Gordian Knot.

It also made Norman a less interesting character.

And it really was just soooooo boring as it went on.

[Garlador]

Clone Saga is a mess. Reading the behind-the-scenes is vastly more entertaining than the actual comic, because it was a complete madhouse starting fires, putting out fires, being on fire, etc. It's the story where editors were making crazy mandates, many people were replaced or fired, ideas were introduced and abandoned or retconned almost immediately, fans were confused and angry as hell, and basically every bad decision was made every step of the way...

... And YET it sold great at first and still had some of the best writers and artists on the book that put out JUST enough quality stories and characters that as bad as it all was, you can see the nuggets of gold in the pile of crap. Ben Reilly's characterization and struggle was well-liked, which is crazy given how it would have been more reasonable to assume readers would hate him as a "replacement", but he was just too likable. Many fans really were amped up to see Peter become a dad, and were really soured that they wrote the baby out, to the point that it catapulted Spider-Girl to over 100 issues once she came along.

As a whole, Clone Saga is the start of "the end" where it was clear editorial was absolutely terrified of letting Peter's story move forward, and this was their attempt to retcon all of it away and start fresh - a mindset that persists to this day.

I continue to attest that the biggest problem lies not with fans - who likely would have been more than happy following along with a Peter growing up and expanding his family and adding to his responsibilities - but with the suits in charge that would rather impose stuff like Clone Saga (or its ilk) to continually pump the brakes on developing the character beyond his most superficial elements.

It was only through the sheer talent involved back then that Clone Saga still has many legitimately great character moments. They couldn't save the story overall, but I revisit those moments often and see the potential there for something truly great. Many of those threads are simply best explored in superior AU books that don't shy away from its legacy, but embrace it and further develop it.

[Username taken]

Spider-man history goes into two periods, before and after the Clone Saga.

That's all you need to know about the Clone Saga.

Spider-man stories (and the character's status) have been somewhat unstable since the Clone Saga.

[Jman27]

I believe it hurts spider-man as a character and franchise alot. Too many titles to read through. not that many impressive characters no real confidence in Ben as Spider-man.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Nevermind the fact marketing intruded too much (and when marketing was done intruding too much, editorial thought it was time to step to the plate and intrude EVEN FURTHER), all of that made a fundamentally simple story an absolute convoluted mess - none the less because things got so bad, all of the involved just wanted it to end already.

That said, ironically enough some fondly remembered beats of the Clone Saga came out EXACTLY because of said meddling. I'd honestly say it's for each person to read for themselves.

Secondly, this is something that affected the Spider-Man titles for years. So, plenty of people must have gotten tired of it at some point.

People definitely did, but Marvel basically threw the baby out with the baby water (literally, in this case) and spent the better portion of nearly 2 decades "character assassinating" a story that needed no one to do the dirty deed for it (that's not even me, either, that's what DeMatteis himself who wrote a fair chunk of it said), as the proof is in the pudding.

However, that maneuever seemed to just be a full speed ahead, heads on fire, desperate scramble from the idea of a dad Spider-Man, since the arc itself was birthed from the need of a single Spider-Man to begin with (no further commentary needed here).

For as much as Marvel said it nearly salted the Earth and whatnot, and you had people like Jemas claim it did irreparable damage to the sales long-term, they just won't stop putting out collections that collect the full thing, for whatever the reason. As we're customarily reminded often, these companies aren't particularly fond of losing money; I've once heard people say "when something's old enough, anyone will get nostalgic for it". And to that I just have to ask, where's our Gathering of Five revival then?

[HypnoHustler]

I loved it. It introduced Ben, Kaine, and a lot of excitement and change into the books. No, it wasn’t perfect, but to me it was one of the most exciting times to be a fan.

You can check my list for further reasons on why I loved it.

[bob.schoonover]

I've once heard people say "when something's old enough, anyone will get nostalgic for it". And to that I just have to ask, where's our Gathering of Five revival then?

Over the next week or two, Omar at NearMintCondition is revealing the next batch of new Epic Collections, and I'd guess we're due for a Spider-Man volume of some kind - unless they're starting an Epic line for one of the satellite titles, the most likely ASM volume would either be another Clone Saga one or one covering the Intermediate Era (as Mr Mets called it)(I've given up on them ever actually releasing a Gang War epic). So, maybe a 5-10% chance there's a Gathering of Five epic announced this month. The renaissance could be nigh

[HypnoHustler]

So, maybe a 5-10% chance there's a Gathering of Five epic announced this month. The renaissance could be nigh

Ugh, who is buying a Gathering of Five TPB? I’d rather read Wells’ ASM. I think the only arc I’d find more painful to reread is OMD. That bar is so low it’s literally resting on the floor.

[Aura Blaize]

I liked it in the beginning as it introduced us to Ben and Kaine. The problem with it has always been that it drug on WAY TOO LONG. And then trying to introduce Ben as a real Peter Parker just was a mistake.

The 2009 version is infinitely better. It took everything that was good about the saga, cut off all the bad stuff and gave us a happy ending. I seriously wish it were canon.

[Hypestyle]

I hate clones.

I hated the betrayal (at the time) of the Spider-Man I had been reading since the seventies being a "fake".

I never saw "Ben" as a twin brother. He's not. he's got the exact same memories up until Peter's blood/flesh sample was taken by the Jackal/Miles Warren. He didn't earn any of those memories, good or bad.

The saga wore out its welcome fairly quickly, for my sensibilities. Not a fun diversion, not a new toybox, just regressive developments passed along as mic-drop moments.

[bob.schoonover]

Ugh, who is buying a Gathering of Five TPB? I’d rather read Wells’ ASM. I think the only arc I’d find more painful to reread is OMD. That bar is so low it’s literally resting on the floor.

I assume the same people that buy many of the Epic Collections - completionists. Some of these collections are pretty rough, content-wise, but Marvel keeps churning them out because people are buying them. It's not like Marvel will skip GoF just because it's bad, and they're running out of sought-after material to collect - by my count they have Gang War (my guess is we need one more MMW of ASM before this comes out), 4 collections that encompass the Wolfman/O'Neil/Stern era (and Stern has the omnibus, so I'm not sure there's a huge groundswell for that material in Epic), 10-ish* collections for the Clone Saga (of which they just reprinted or are reprinting all four omnibuses), then two for the Intermediate Era, then ASM is collected entirely through the reboot. As distasteful as it may be, Gathering of Five will very likely come out in Epic format by the end of 2028.


*Since they're called ASM epics, will they include all the CS material that was in the old Complete Epics? I can see the argument either way

[HypnoHustler]

I assume the same people that buy many of the Epic Collections - completionists. Some of these collections are pretty rough, content-wise, but Marvel keeps churning them out because people are buying them. It's not like Marvel will skip GoF just because it's bad, and they're running out of sought-after material to collect - by my count they have Gang War (my guess is we need one more MMW of ASM before this comes out), 4 collections that encompass the Wolfman/O'Neil/Stern era (and Stern has the omnibus, so I'm not sure there's a huge groundswell for that material in Epic), 10-ish* collections for the Clone Saga (of which they just reprinted or are reprinting all four omnibuses), then two for the Intermediate Era, then ASM is collected entirely through the reboot. As distasteful as it may be, Gathering of Five will very likely come out in Epic format by the end of 2028.


*Since they're called ASM epics, will they include all the CS material that was in the old Complete Epics? I can see the argument either way

What’s messed up is they’ve never collected JMD’s early 90s Harry Osborn saga. I’d put that saga up there with KLH, Stern’s ASM run, and “The Night Gwen Stacy Died.” And yet, unlike those stories or runs, it’s never gotten its due. There’s a couple TPBs with Spec #200 which has the death of Harry, but it’s never been collected with “The Child Within”, Spec #189, and the other issues with Harry losing it. A real shame that some of the arguably worst arcs are getting collected before the arguably best one.

[Alan2099]

The story started out strong and had quite a few good ideas and new characters, but it went on to long, and stumbled over itself with reveals and unreveals and the whole idea that they could replace Spider-man with a while new Spider-man was a horrible flawed one (although short term it had it's interesting moments.)

[Username taken]

I hate clones.

I hated the betrayal (at the time) of the Spider-Man I had been reading since the seventies being a "fake".

I never saw "Ben" as a twin brother. He's not. he's got the exact same memories up until Peter's blood/flesh sample was taken by the Jackal/Miles Warren. He didn't earn any of those memories, good or bad.

The saga wore out its welcome fairly quickly, for my sensibilities. Not a fun diversion, not a new toybox, just regressive developments passed along as mic-drop moments.

Exactly this.

This (just like with Azrael replacing Batman) was something I hated from the get-go. The difference being that Azrael being Batman did feel temporary, the Clone Saga said and insisted that the Spider-man that had existed for decades, that we literally grew up with wasn't the real Spider-man. This was insane.

No exaggeration, I didn't read anything Spider-man for a very long time after the Clone Saga. Honestly, looking at sales data, I think a lot of people jumped off and maybe never even came back.

Stories like this break trust because if the company could attempt something like this (for such a long period), what can't they do? (See OMD).