What would you want from an “Ultimate Superman”?

[Jon Clark]

My pet peeve with those old Elseworld stories was that they were always focused on getting Superman in the same place as he “normally” is. Military found and raised him? The Waynes raised him instead of the Kents? Jor and Lara travelled with him to Earth? Doesn’t matter he always ends up becoming his mainline self by the end. It’s just not the best use of the premises, instead of exploring the differences the goal was to figure out how to get him to align with the mainline guy. I wonder if that was an editorial edict or just writer fiat? It felt like there was a focus on heroic destiny back then.

Sometimes I wondered if it was just that Kal-El had a constant personality. A sort of approach where being Superman (personality not powers) was a given with or without the Kents. Give him to Stalin to raise and he still is altruistic, things don't work out for him there but he definitely isn't a Soviet Ultraman or Ubermensch. The only hitch is that is undermined by stuff like Injustice where we see a Superman who does go dark.

It stood out most in the Elseworld where he is raised by Darkseid of all beings and still winds up noble. I mean if Darkseid can't turn Superman evil ... ?

[DochaDocha]

It stood out most in the Elseworld where he is raised by Darkseid of all beings and still winds up noble. I mean if Darkseid can't turn Superman evil ... ?

Well, Darkseid didn't fridge Lois so he couldn't trigger events like Brave New Metropolis or Injustice...

[Vordan]

Sometimes I wondered if it was just that Kal-El had a constant personality. A sort of approach where being Superman (personality not powers) was a given with or without the Kents. Give him to Stalin to raise and he still is altruistic, things don't work out for him there but he definitely isn't a Soviet Ultraman or Ubermensch. The only hitch is that is undermined by stuff like Injustice where we see a Superman who does go dark.

It stood out most in the Elseworld where he is raised by Darkseid of all beings and still winds up noble. I mean if Darkseid can't turn Superman evil ... ?

Most writers do take the approach that Kents or no, Superman is going to want to do something with his powers to change the world. That in and of itself I’m fine with, where I take issue with their approach is how the story always twisted to ensure Supes would end up wearing a version of his classic costume, become “Clark Kent” with glasses and work at the Daily Planet, and adopt the hero approach of his mainline counterpart where he’s not too violent doesn’t use lethal force. I don’t buy that any of that is intrinsic to who he is, that stuff is a result of his upbringing. Raised by someone else I could easily see a Superman who is more selfish and doesn’t mind using his powers to enrich himself while also helping others, Booster Gold style. Or a Superman who isn’t as bothered by brutality against his foes.

Yes it definitely used to be a thing that Superman was “incorruptible”, I think the DCAU got the ball rolling on changing that which obviously culminated in Injustice and the DCEU going the opposite way of him being the weak link of the JL. Before that you obviously had TDKR but even in that it’s made clear that Clark is both deeply unhappy with working for the government and also doesn’t want to fight Bruce. This trend of him losing his mind and morals at the drop of a hat is more recent.

Bringing it back to the original premise of the thread, what I’d want to see from an “Ultimate Superman”, I really want to see a Clark who is more willing to push the envelope than his Earth 0 counterpart. He has a bigger impact on changing the status quo via his actions or employing Kryptonian tech. Earth 0 wants to follow the “world outside your window” model? Let’s make an Earth that is instead all about exploring the impact Superman could have, good and bad.

Edit: A concrete example is that it’s always bothered me how Superman has never made it a priority to help humanity expand beyond Earth. He’s from a planet that didn’t invest in space travel until it’s too late, he has a rocket capable of FTL travel, why would he not help humanity spread to other worlds? The worst case scenario of humanity never leaving Earth is his reality, I don’t buy that Superman wouldn’t be a big supporter of space colonization. Morrison had a little of that with their Action run where Mars was beginning to be colonized, but I’d want to see an Ultimate Superman really help push humanity forward as a space-faring species.

[HsssH]

Sadly Mars colonization goes against the core idea of DC and Marvel being just like a regular world, but with superheroes. But maybe "ultimate" version would be able to escape this dead weight.

[DABellWrites]

You can tweak your message to be more specific about what aspects of the system you want torn down. For instance, I think you can get 99% of people to agree Bernie Madoff was a terrible person. That kind of swindling is something people universally look down on. But what a union buster Congressman? Maybe 60% of the audience would find that guy appalling, bad for the working class, etc., but then there are folks who interpret a story of Superman taking down that politician as too preachy at best and morally misguided at worst.

Of course, the problem of picking stories that we all agree on is that the stories probably are too bland. It's not that different from stopping an armed bank robber.

You bring up a good point, I don't want to read a writer interjecting their politics into Superman, if it's not the creators of Superman. Which is another reason why I'm not for the whole return to the Champion of the Oppress. Unless they take a neutral position on the matter, I don't see it happening. And we lean into another problem, these characters being propped up to standing up for what is "good" or "right", some might say what's wrong with that? Well, look at this way, if Superman shakes hands with the U.S. president and calls himself the ally of the police. Will you deem that right or good like you would if Superman would stand up for LGBT or Black Lives Matter?

The whole thing. You can't be the Champion of the Oppressed and just take on one aspect of the system.

[DABellWrites]

You bring up a good point, I don't want to read a writer interjecting their politics into Superman, if it's not the creators of Superman. Which is another reason why I'm not for the whole return to the Champion of the Oppress. Unless they take a neutral position on the matter, I don't see it happening. And we lean into another problem, these characters being propped up to standing up for what is "good" or "right", some might say what's wrong with that? Well, look at this way, if Superman shakes hands with the U.S. president and calls himself the ally of the police. Will you deem that right or good like you would if Superman would stand up for LGBT or Black Lives Matter?

The whole thing. You can't be the Champion of the Oppressed and just take on one aspect of the system.

Most writers do take the approach that Kents or no, Superman is going to want to do something with his powers to change the world. That in and of itself I’m fine with, where I take issue with their approach is how the story always twisted to ensure Supes would end up wearing a version of his classic costume, become “Clark Kent” with glasses and work at the Daily Planet, and adopt the hero approach of his mainline counterpart where he’s not too violent doesn’t use lethal force. I don’t buy that any of that is intrinsic to who he is, that stuff is a result of his upbringing. Raised by someone else I could easily see a Superman who is more selfish and doesn’t mind using his powers to enrich himself while also helping others, Booster Gold style. Or a Superman who isn’t as bothered by brutality against his foes.

Yes it definitely used to be a thing that Superman was “incorruptible”, I think the DCAU got the ball rolling on changing that which obviously culminated in Injustice and the DCEU going the opposite way of him being the weak link of the JL. Before that you obviously had TDKR but even in that it’s made clear that Clark is both deeply unhappy with working for the government and also doesn’t want to fight Bruce. This trend of him losing his mind and morals at the drop of a hat is more recent.

Bringing it back to the original premise of the thread, what I’d want to see from an “Ultimate Superman”, I really want to see a Clark who is more willing to push the envelope than his Earth 0 counterpart. He has a bigger impact on changing the status quo via his actions or employing Kryptonian tech. Earth 0 wants to follow the “world outside your window” model? Let’s make an Earth that is instead all about exploring the impact Superman could have, good and bad.

Edit: A concrete example is that it’s always bothered me how Superman has never made it a priority to help humanity expand beyond Earth. He’s from a planet that didn’t invest in space travel until it’s too late, he has a rocket capable of FTL travel, why would he not help humanity spread to other worlds? The worst case scenario of humanity never leaving Earth is his reality, I don’t buy that Superman wouldn’t be a big supporter of space colonization. Morrison had a little of that with their Action run where Mars was beginning to be colonized, but I’d want to see an Ultimate Superman really help push humanity forward as a space-faring species.

I actually see the Kents being central to who Clark is as Superman to be more of a problem than helpful to the character, as Superman is no longer the guy who does what does because HE knows it's the right thing to do to being whatever is needed for the story to work, so they swap out how Clark is brought up. Clark had a character, he had a personality. He no longer has that, he's now whatever the story needs him to be. Secondly, the idea that the idea of it not being intrinsic to who is, has opened the door to things like Justice Society: WW2 where Clark decided to stay on the sidelines rather than use his powers to help others. I hate the idea that Clark would rather be a normal human than being Superman, using his powers to make the world a better place. It takes away from the appeal of the character and makes him less Superman each time it happens.

[Vordan]

Sadly Mars colonization goes against the core idea of DC and Marvel being just like a regular world, but with superheroes. But maybe "ultimate" version would be able to escape this dead weight.

Ultimate Marvel ended up diverging much more from the world outside your window if I recall. Maker killed all of Germany and nuked D.C. to kill Ultimate President Obama. No reason an Ultimate DC couldn’t likewise get more freedom to diverge from our reality more than Earth 0 is allowed to.

[manwhohaseverything]

Injustice and man of steel came out same time.They were in works way before.Superman being "incorruptable" shattered with darkknight returns.That was with the kents.Heck!i have yet to see anything deliver a blow like that to superman.It ripped a part superman like nothing.Great read.

[Prime]

Ultimate Marvel ended up diverging much more from the world outside your window if I recall. Maker killed all of Germany and nuked D.C. to kill Ultimate President Obama. No reason an Ultimate DC couldn’t likewise get more freedom to diverge from our reality more than Earth 0 is allowed to.

Last I remember it looked like it was ending more or less the same as 616 right ?

[Lightning Rider]

Sadly Mars colonization goes against the core idea of DC and Marvel being just like a regular world, but with superheroes. But maybe "ultimate" version would be able to escape this dead weight.

That's true actually - I would be very interested to see a kind of "2nd chapter" to Superman's involvement in changing the world. The epilogue added to Kingdom Come shows him shepherding the universe that eventually lead to the LOSH. Leading humanity off-world would make a lot of sense.

So a world in which Earth is slowly transitioning into a new phase of humanity thanks to Kryptonian technology & geopolitical stability provided by Superman would be awesome. There would still have to be conflict of course, but of a different kind.

[HsssH]

Lots of stories in other mediums where some colony decides to rebel against united Earth federation. Superman could easily fit there.

[bat39]

You bring up a good point, I don't want to read a writer interjecting their politics into Superman, if it's not the creators of Superman. Which is another reason why I'm not for the whole return to the Champion of the Oppress. Unless they take a neutral position on the matter, I don't see it happening. And we lean into another problem, these characters being propped up to standing up for what is "good" or "right", some might say what's wrong with that? Well, look at this way, if Superman shakes hands with the U.S. president and calls himself the ally of the police. Will you deem that right or good like you would if Superman would stand up for LGBT or Black Lives Matter?

The whole thing. You can't be the Champion of the Oppressed and just take on one aspect of the system.

I think it works if you treat him like Batman. He'll do whatever it takes to help someone in danger, or neutralize someone who's a threat to an innocent person - and no laws or social conventions will stop him.

He's a vigilante who goes beyond the letter of the law to get things done, but he's not trying to topple the system. He'll break down the governor's door to get a pardon for an innocent woman, but he won't break down the Oval Office door to depose the President because he disagrees with the latter's policies.

If Superman sees someone who's a victim of a racial attack, he'll step him to help that person, and to put the fear of God into the perpetrators. That doesn't mean he has to go attend a BLM march or go topple statues.

I actually see the Kents being central to who Clark is as Superman to be more of a problem than helpful to the character, as Superman is no longer the guy who does what does because HE knows it's the right thing to do to being whatever is needed for the story to work, so they swap out how Clark is brought up. Clark had a character, he had a personality. He no longer has that, he's now whatever the story needs him to be. Secondly, the idea that the idea of it not being intrinsic to who is, has opened the door to things like Justice Society: WW2 where Clark decided to stay on the sidelines rather than use his powers to help others. I hate the idea that Clark would rather be a normal human than being Superman, using his powers to make the world a better place. It takes away from the appeal of the character and makes him less Superman each time it happens.

On a somewhat related note, I have a theory that while the Kents may not necessarily be the sole reason why Clark is Superman, they do influence how he operates as Superman, at least to begin with.

In the Golden Age, the Kents are dead before Clark becomes Superman. So he's on his own, he has no one to protect from the possible repercussions of his identity being exposed, which means he's free to operate unrestrained as a vigilante, and no one is there to tell him otherwise.

In the Silver Age, on the other hand, he first becomes Superboy as a child, when the Kents are around, so they mould the kind of hero he'll be, and instill in him a respect for law and order. This continues long after their deaths, once he 'graduates' to being Superman.

And then most modern versions after COIE keep the Kents alive when Clark becomes Superman, so once again he's restrained - both to protect them and because he shares their respect for the law. But the New 52 version, an intentional throwback to the Golden Age with the Kents dead and Clark first becoming a hero without their influence, goes back to the vigilante characterization at the start of his career.

This pattern holds up in adaptations too, one way or another. In the Donner film, Martha is still alive - and in any case, Clark was trained (basically indoctrinated) to be Superman by the Jor-El AI so there's that restraint.

[Vordan]

Sook shared some concept art of the “Superman” from Future’s End. The top left and bottom right designs are kinda cool, minus the headpiece I’d love an Ultimate Superman suit that took inspiration from those. Also dig bottom left but that feels more like a Steel design with all the gray.

[HsssH]

You know that it is Shazam?

[Vordan]

You know that it is Shazam?

Yep, hence why I put Superman in quotes. Still a cool Superman suit design.