What would you want from an “Ultimate Superman”?

[DochaDocha]

Calvin Ellis is a black “Kalel” raised by a kindly couple who are farmers per Williamson’s use of them. It’s been done already, frankly if you’re going to racebend Superman you should do it for an ethnic group that hasn’t been represented yet. Superman as a Native American or Indian or MENA. But at that point it’s less an “Ultimate” take and more an Elseworld like Red Son.

Ditto for him dating Wonder Woman, they’ve done that repeatedly. It’s his second most common romance outside of Lois at this point. I’m not saying doing it again would be good or bad, but it’s not a novel or unique idea.

You know what? Here’s an idea: what if we went back the very first idea of Superman’s upbringing in Action #1 - he wasn’t raised by the Kents at all. Instead he was raised in an orphanage. Now that would be something potentially different. Superman is a product of his life experiences moreso than a singular traumatic event, and so what does a Superman who isn’t raised in a perfect household but also isn’t raised in horrific one turn out to be? That to me offers an opportunity similar in nature to what Hickman is exploring right now with a Spider-Man who gets his powers as a grown man who is married and a father.

We'd come full circle. Billy Batson aped Superman in the early years, and now Superman gets to be more like The Real Captain Marvel. I like it.

Now that would be a different and interesting take being in an orphanage. Very Dickensian. I like it.

Another possible divergence would be if he’s taken away by the gov shortly after Ma and Pa find him. This could either be in a normal timeline or in a dystopian future setting. The one thing they’d have to steer clear of here though is not making him become a gov stooge. It could be the basis of him going against the establishment.

Also a nice idea. If nothing else, it'd be a good Elseworlds premise.

[Vordan]

Now that would be a different and interesting take being in an orphanage. Very Dickensian. I like it.

Another possible divergence would be if he’s taken away by the gov shortly after Ma and Pa find him. This could either be in a normal timeline or in a dystopian future setting. The one thing they’d have to steer clear of here though is not making him become a gov stooge. It could be the basis of him going against the establishment.

Flashpoint kinda explored that, General Sam Lane basically “raised” Kal as a son in the red sunlight cell. But I like your idea of him somehow breaking free, that could be a big enough difference to make it worth exploring. Maybe he holds some resentment towards Lois too at first since her dad oversaw his imprisonment. But then I’m not sure if that drifts too much into being an “Elseworld”, because I can’t see how he could have a secret identity or work as a journalist with that background.

[DochaDocha]

Flashpoint kinda explored that, General Sam Lane basically “raised” Kal as a son in the red sunlight cell. But I like your idea of him somehow breaking free, that could be a big enough difference to make it worth exploring. Maybe he holds some resentment towards Lois too at first since her dad oversaw his imprisonment. But then I’m not sure if that drifts too much into being an “Elseworld”, because I can’t see how he could have a secret identity or work as a journalist with that background.

Maybe when Superman breaks out of being a ward of the state, he fabricates a new civilian identity and history for himself and tries to blend in plain sight.

[Thor-Ul]

Calvin Ellis is a black “Kalel” raised by a kindly couple who are farmers per Williamson’s use of them. It’s been done already, frankly if you’re going to racebend Superman you should do it for an ethnic group that hasn’t been represented yet. Superman as a Native American or Indian or MENA. But at that point it’s less an “Ultimate” take and more an Elseworld like Red Son.

Ditto for him dating Wonder Woman, they’ve done that repeatedly. It’s his second most common romance outside of Lois at this point. I’m not saying doing it again would be good or bad, but it’s not a novel or unique idea.

You know what? Here’s an idea: what if we went back the very first idea of Superman’s upbringing in Action #1 - he wasn’t raised by the Kents at all. Instead he was raised in an orphanage. Now that would be something potentially different. Superman is a product of his life experiences moreso than a singular traumatic event, and so what does a Superman who isn’t raised in a perfect household but also isn’t raised in horrific one turn out to be? That to me offers an opportunity similar in nature to what Hickman is exploring right now with a Spider-Man who gets his powers as a grown man who is married and a father.

I can argue than that also has been done: There is the elseworld Superman Inc. by Steve Vance and Jesus Garcia-Lopez, where Kal-El becames Dale Suderman and grows up in the public childcare system after being found by a random driver. A series of tragic events lead the kid to return to live in an orphanage, where he starts to use his powers to become a basketball star and later a rich man.

Oh, and in the elseworld Speeding Bullets, where Superman was raised by the Wayne family, he spend his whole life supressing his powers after causing the death of Joe Chill, in the tragi nigh for everyone here known.

The point is Superman has such a long history is than any variant suggested from the present mainstream publication possibly will have an equivalent or reference. The most suggested could be a younger Superman to oppose to the present more mature Superman but that also would cause to make characters like Jon or Kenan redundant. A change of ethnicity, also could be seen as too much a departure of the archetype of Superman. Any "Ultimate" reinvention have as challenge the need to be different and yet familiar enough to cause curiosity and attract readers.

Not easy task.

[Ascended]

Dc is a company..i am sure there are or will be independent people out there making stuff that ain't superhero..but deeper.

Eh, someone will try something along these lines eventually maybe. DC could do it themselves if they believed in the pitch, thought it'd be profitable, and didn't have better alternatives. But like I said, I don't see them having a ton of interest in expanding their genre, especially with Clark. Why would they? What they have now makes money. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Any "Ultimate" reinvention have as challenge the need to be different and yet familiar enough to cause curiosity and attract readers.

Not easy task.

Well, you take the early Golden Age stuff and you've got more than enough differences to build on. Modern spins on the OG have proven popular, like Smashes the Klan, Yang's arc of Super-Bat, Morrison's Action. They've hit that basic 'different yet familiar' vibe and made it work. Sure, doing 'the Golden Age redux' is an obvious option, perhaps a lazy and uninspired one. But it's also proven successful, which means going back to it isn't lazy or uninspired, it's good business.

It's not the only option or anything, but it's a damn fine choice.

[The Frog Bros]

Flashpoint kinda explored that, General Sam Lane basically “raised” Kal as a son in the red sunlight cell. But I like your idea of him somehow breaking free, that could be a big enough difference to make it worth exploring. Maybe he holds some resentment towards Lois too at first since her dad oversaw his imprisonment. But then I’m not sure if that drifts too much into being an “Elseworld”, because I can’t see how he could have a secret identity or work as a journalist with that background.

I guess they could write Sam Lane either way in that setting, either as a typical cog in the gov machine, or someone who wants to help Kal.

Maybe when Superman breaks out of being a ward of the state, he fabricates a new civilian identity and history for himself and tries to blend in plain sight.

Would be fun and interesting to see how he'd get the name Clark Kent in that circumstance.

[Prime]

All I’m hearing is that an Ultimate Superman would be a more consistent version of Superbro. Which I’m ok with.

[Thor-Ul]

How about the opposite take? Instead a younger Superman coming to present day, we go back to his original golden age origin from 1939, but with a big difference: he don't grow older. Also without having sons (kryptonian biology was to much different). An immortal Superman who has lived among humans since a century, without grow older than 25-30.

I am sure someelse is going to point that has been done elsewhere, but it is a different take, isn't?

[Multiverse]

I've been building my own idea for a Superman Series for a while now. Here's a few ideas:

Krypton: A complex history is delved into in this series; the ancient Kryptonian Empire spanning the 28 known galaxies, leading to the creation of Doomsday (stopped only by the combined might of the GLC); the sun Rao is has it’s energy drained by a Sun-Eater as punishment (explaining the red sun); the secret discovery of the Phantom Zone by Seg-El (and how the Projector’s “at-the-time” crude technology stripped it’s inmates of the physical forms, hence the name); Jax-Ur tries to avoid the Zone Sentence by leaking the Phantom Zone Projector’s existence to the general public (resulting in a civil unrest led by the “Black Zero” insurrectionists); the Black Zero Uprising coming to an abrupt end with the appearance of the Computer Tyrant Brainiac and the disappearance of the capital city Kandor); the iron grip of the Kryptonian Scientist council (who have held the reins of the Council longer than legally required, another guild should have long taken charge by now) leds to a military coup led by General Zod; and of course, Jor-El’s discovery of the planet’s core becoming unstable.
Clark’s “Superboy” Years: Flashbacks of Clark’s teen years have him saving people in Smallville, while keeping his activates a secret would be seen throughout. I have it that Smallville has it’s own inner circle in the form of Jonathan Kent, Chief Douglas Parker and Lana’s uncle Professor Phineas Potter (Pa Kent needed their help to move Clark’s shuttle to the barn without drawing attention to himself; Smallville’s a smalltown), they work together to help keep Clark’s secret in the dark from the town’s citizens, while Chief Parker sometimes asks Clark’s help on certain cases and Prof. Potter investigating the ship for clues on Clark’s past. Clark would meet the Legion of Super-Heroes at this time, and bumped into Vartox, Mon-El and Insect Queen during this tenure. Lana, Pete and Chloe are his best mates, while dealing with 3 bullies; Whitney Fordman, Kenny Braverman and Brad “Bash” Bradford (one becomes a better person, one becomes a bigger villain in the long run, and the other… who knows).
The L-Corp Think-Tank: Inspired by Shogun Manga (forgive spelling), I expand Lex-Corp to not just be about the Luthors. I have the Corporation run by Lionel Luthor at first, leading a board of scientists taking advantage of the appearance of Superman to create a armada of Super-Soldiers: comprised of K. Russell Abernathy (creator of the Kryptonite Men, discovers and/or creates different forms of Kryptonite, and his run-off biproducts inadvertently lead to the creation of Parasite), Emmett Vale (Lionel’s oldest friend, leading weapons manufacturer and creator of the Metallo Alloy), Dabney Donovan (Head of the subsidiary “Cadmus”, mad geneticist, creator of Project Match/ Bizarro, Nuclear Man, and Conner Kent) and the mysterious Delores Winters (head of neural science, discoveries of the human brain)
Lex Luthor: Taking notes from the Silver Age, Lex would still have his red hair at this point and is considered an embarrassment by his father, who tried to have him moved to a offshore division (out of sight, out of mind). He starts of as an ally to Superman, working together to take down his father’s think-tank. However, Lex pulls a one-eighty and has his father killed in a way takes suspicion away from him and onto Superman, in a diabolical plan to seize control of the company. He also tries to kill Superman with Kryptonite, only to have Lois pick up the meteor shard and hurl it at Lex’s face. It scrams Lex’s face, leaving bloody marks and traces of Green K on him (Uh-Oh, that can’t be good in the long run)
Ultra-Humanite: Basically the initial big bad, the mad scientist Gerald Shugel was a former member of Vincent Edge’s Intergang years ago. But following Vincent’s arrest (at the hands of his media mogul son, Morgan), the scientist vanished into thin air. During the season, Intergang (currently led by Bruno Mannheim) is targeted by the old man multiple times, but when Superman finally hunts him down, he finds the shriveled corpse of the Shugel. But designs for a brainwave transfer lead him to believe Shugel is alive, in someone else’s body (3 guesses who).
Morgan Edge: Taking notes from his Pre-Crisis self, Morgan may be a douchebag, but he’s not a villain (more like “Legend of Korra”’s Varrick). He is arch-rival to Perry White, constantly causing trouble to with the Daily Planet, and his actions inadvertently lead to Prankster and Livewire (both have a score to settle with Edge).
Toyman: A more mentally disturbing Winslow P. Schott is made for this series. A year or two before Superman came into the scene, Toyman was serving 5-to-life at Stryker’s Island for the death of Adam Grant, Cat Grant’s 5-year-old son. Cat had made some rather rude comments about Schott in her story about him, and as a result Toyman sent a toy plane loaded with a mini gun to kill Cat. However, when Cat took a swing at the plane with her handbag, she inadvertently knocked out the targeting system, resulting in Adam getting caught in the crossfire. Toyman despises child-abusers/ molesters and has been known to kill such scum while in prison (resulting in him getting solitary confinement in his first appearance). Released by Lex Luthor in his plan to overthrow L-Corp, Schott learns Superman’s secret Identity, making him one of the most dangerous rogues Superman has.

[Vordan]

How about the opposite take? Instead a younger Superman coming to present day, we go back to his original golden age origin from 1939, but with a big difference: he don't grow older. Also without having sons (kryptonian biology was to much different). An immortal Superman who has lived among humans since a century, without grow older than 25-30.

I am sure someelse is going to point that has been done elsewhere, but it is a different take, isn't?

That would be fascinating, and would make a great counterpart to what Hickman is doing with 6160 Peter. Here’s an idea: what if he’s been around for a century like you said, but only gone public as a hero relatively recently? Similar to how the new Ultimate Spider-Man is getting his powers as a married man/father instead of a teenager, Clark only becomes Superman after a century of hiding and working in the shadows? My preference is still for a young Superman simply because that congrats better with the current Superdad being the mainline version, but this would be an interesting take too.

[Thor-Ul]

That would be fascinating, and would make a great counterpart to what Hickman is doing with 6160 Peter. Here’s an idea: what if he’s been around for a century like you said, but only gone public as a hero relatively recently? Similar to how the new Ultimate Spider-Man is getting his powers as a married man/father instead of a teenager, Clark only becomes Superman after a century of hiding and working in the shadows? My preference is still for a young Superman simply because that congrats better with the current Superdad being the mainline version, but this would be an interesting take too.

Could be, but that also would make him similar to Icon, in the sense of him being just recently debuted. If I would take some reference to Hickman's Ultimate Spider-Man, I would go for the conspiracy angle, with him debuting briefly in the original date, but recruited by the US army for the war. But after the end of the conflict his bosses start to fear him and try to kill him. Clark goes underground for decades, acting in secret and his power growing and growing and a secret agency (Cadmus?) hunting him and preparing agents to take him down. When he started he was just golden age level of power, but when he chooses to go public, almost 80 years later, he is already far more powerful.

[bat39]

Yes, but those are not Clark Kent. Make a black Clark Kent.
And by the way, Calvin Ellis is a great character, but Val Zod is horrible. Totally bland.

That's not what Ultimate Spider-Man did in the case of their 'black Spider-Man' though...and considering that Miles Morales is arguably the most successful 'race-bent' take on a superhero character, I'd say Marvel's approach is a lot more effective than what you're suggesting.

Calvin Ellis is a black “Kalel” raised by a kindly couple who are farmers per Williamson’s use of them. It’s been done already, frankly if you’re going to racebend Superman you should do it for an ethnic group that hasn’t been represented yet. Superman as a Native American or Indian or MENA. But at that point it’s less an “Ultimate” take and more an Elseworld like Red Son.

Ditto for him dating Wonder Woman, they’ve done that repeatedly. It’s his second most common romance outside of Lois at this point. I’m not saying doing it again would be good or bad, but it’s not a novel or unique idea.

You know what? Here’s an idea: what if we went back the very first idea of Superman’s upbringing in Action #1 - he wasn’t raised by the Kents at all. Instead he was raised in an orphanage. Now that would be something potentially different. Superman is a product of his life experiences moreso than a singular traumatic event, and so what does a Superman who isn’t raised in a perfect household but also isn’t raised in horrific one turn out to be? That to me offers an opportunity similar in nature to what Hickman is exploring right now with a Spider-Man who gets his powers as a grown man who is married and a father.

Yeah, this would be interesting to explore. Incidentially, didn't the Tomorrowverse JSA movie pretty much do this with their 'Earth 2 Superman'?

Now that would be a different and interesting take being in an orphanage. Very Dickensian. I like it.

Another possible divergence would be if he’s taken away by the gov shortly after Ma and Pa find him. This could either be in a normal timeline or in a dystopian future setting. The one thing they’d have to steer clear of here though is not making him become a gov stooge. It could be the basis of him going against the establishment.

There's an 'Imaginary Story' published in the 70's that explores this very topic. Kal-El is raised by the US military and trained to be the secret weapon codenamed 'Skyboy'. But when his father-figure and mentor dies, he runs away from the military and assumes the identity of reporter Clark Kent...until years later when he reveals himself to the world again as Superman.

[Vordan]

That's not what Ultimate Spider-Man did in the case of their 'black Spider-Man' though...and considering that Miles Morales is arguably the most successful 'race-bent' take on a superhero character, I'd say Marvel's approach is a lot more effective than what you're suggesting.



Yeah, this would be interesting to explore. Incidentially, didn't the Tomorrowverse JSA movie pretty much do this with their 'Earth 2 Superman'?



There's an 'Imaginary Story' published in the 70's that explores this very topic. Kal-El is raised by the US military and trained to be the secret weapon codenamed 'Skyboy'. But when his father-figure and mentor dies, he runs away from the military and assumes the identity of reporter Clark Kent...until years later when he reveals himself to the world again as Superman.

My pet peeve with those old Elseworld stories was that they were always focused on getting Superman in the same place as he “normally” is. Military found and raised him? The Waynes raised him instead of the Kents? Jor and Lara travelled with him to Earth? Doesn’t matter he always ends up becoming his mainline self by the end. It’s just not the best use of the premises, instead of exploring the differences the goal was to figure out how to get him to align with the mainline guy. I wonder if that was an editorial edict or just writer fiat? It felt like there was a focus on heroic destiny back then.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

How about the opposite take? Instead a younger Superman coming to present day, we go back to his original golden age origin from 1939, but with a big difference: he don't grow older. Also without having sons (kryptonian biology was to much different). An immortal Superman who has lived among humans since a century, without grow older than 25-30.

I am sure someelse is going to point that has been done elsewhere, but it is a different take, isn't?

I liked Old Superman in Morrison's authority so id be cool with that. I think Batman Beyond's Justice league beyond spinoff explored Superman coming up with a new id and trying to live a normal life outside of superheroing again.

My pet peeve with those old Elseworld stories was that they were always focused on getting Superman in the same place as he “normally” is. Military found and raised him? The Waynes raised him instead of the Kents? Jor and Lara travelled with him to Earth? Doesn’t matter he always ends up becoming his mainline self by the end. It’s just not the best use of the premises, instead of exploring the differences the goal was to figure out how to get him to align with the mainline guy. I wonder if that was an editorial edict or just writer fiat? It felt like there was a focus on heroic destiny back then.

It could similar to Marvel's What if? they didn't want to make it more attractive than the mainline version.

[Jeffrey2]

An "Ultimate" Superman was done in the 60s. Superman #149. The Death of Superman. I purchased a copy of 'The Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told' from an "old books" bookshop. This was one of those stories. It's a shocker. Evil triumphs, Superman is really dead at the hands of Luthor. Like Morrison's All-Star Superman, Luthor gets a comeuppance. In this story he is caught and sentenced to "life" in the Phantom Zone. For the faint of heart, the final panel reassures readers that this is an imaginary story - and adds aren't they all.

In those days they didn't do events. The story is told in one issue unlike the modern-day Doomsday Death of Superman that spanned many issues. That is a weakness in the tale. No mention is made of Clark at Superman's funeral. Obviously, he would be there but is not. Superman has eliminated all kryptonite, yet Luthor develops a kryptonite ray which he uses to kill Superman. Presumably the rare space meteor that Luthor has Superman retrieve allowed Luthor to create artificial kryptonite? Luthor does use it to cure cancer. Superman is buried under a monument in Metropolis's Central Park but that begs the question -the government or others would surely try to get the body and experiment on it. Great story but, as I said, lots of plot holes.

This story could be redone as an ultimate tale. The many plot holes could be filled in and the ending changed. Superman dies, Luthor is victorious and enjoys having "destroyed the mightiest man in the universe" for a while. But his life loses all meaning without Superman as a foe. The story could take several paths from that point.

Superman #149

Question about Morrison's All-Star Superman. It ends with a panel at the lab where Superman had helped the scientists in saving the astronauts. There is a door to a room which says Superman II. Implying the scientists would attempt to recreate Superman. Was Morrison's intention to do a follow-up? Or leave the door open to someone so doing? Given Gunn taking inspiration from ASS for Superman Legacy the time would be ripe for the "rest of the story.