What Would You Want From an "Ultimate Batman?"

[Hurricane Billy]

Stealing this from Vordan's thread over in the Superman section:

There’s been rumors that Scott Snyder is returning to DC this year to head up an “Ultimate DC” line, and in the latest issue of his newsletter he says he’s returning to superheroes with announcements coming soon. I wanted therefore to make a thread and ask you guys what would you want to see if the Ultimate DC rumors turn out to be true.

1. Who would you want the writer to be?
2. Who would you want the artist to be?
3. What should be different from the current Earth 0 incarnation of Batman?
4. What should be the same?

Obviously DC's love for making as many Batman books as possible, especially under the Black Label, make this a bit trickier than it is for other DC heroes, but if the rumors are legitimate, there's no way they won't be doing an Ultimate Batman book of some sort in the mix.

Personally speaking, I'm not sure who I'd pick for the writer or artist, but the immediate thought that crossed my mind for Batman was very similar to my thoughts for what to do with an Ultimate Superman: Go back to the source and pull heavily from the Golden Age comics.

Focus heavily on the idea of Batman being a vigilante detective first and foremost working outside the law and is regularly avoiding contact with the police, including Commissioner Gordon. So no Bat Signal at the top of GCPD Headquarters. I'd push for a really lo-fi angle with Bruce having very limited and practical gear.

Obviously I'd suggest integrating a few post-Golden Age ideas and characters into the mix, primarily having Alfred present from the get go as Bruce's father figure and primary support and then eventually introduce Carrie Kelly as the sole Robin of this timeline. She's underutilized as a character in other books and if the idea here is to do things a bit differently than other Batman comics currently, she's a strong pick to have a Robin present. While classic villains like Joker, Catwoman, Clayface and Two Face will all be present in some capacity, the arch nemesis for Bruce here should be Hugo Strange as the ongoing Moriarty figure to Bruce's Sherlock Holmes. I'd also push for a modern reimagining of the Golden Age Clayface and have fun with the idea of a "Phantom of the Opera, Gotham City Edition" type story.

Rather than exploring romances with Catwoman or Talia, I'd actually push for this book to pull from Mask of the Phantasm and have Andrea Beaumont as Bruce's ongoing love interest and recurring antagonist as the Phantasm. Much like Carrie, Andrea is a criminally underutilized character in the Batman mythos and this would be a perfect chance to bring her to the limelight again.

[Bitterman]

I have a feeling that the Ultimate DC line is going to be the White Knight Universe rebranded into DC's own Ultimate universe, since they are setting up the league, superman first show up, and Terry now being Batman.

[Vordan]

Feel like the obvious answer is a Batman who:

-Has no sidekicks or spin off heroes to contrast with E0 Batman’s enormous family
-Is not a super genius who builds backup personalities
-Starts off solving cases and deal with gritty “real” crimes to contrast with E0 Batman fighting endless city destroying threats

Basically go back to grim and gritty grounded Batman.

I have a feeling that the Ultimate DC line is going to be the White Knight Universe rebranded into DC's own Ultimate universe, since they are setting up the league, superman first show up, and Terry now being Batman.

Nah that’s definitely not happening. The WKverse is Murphy’s baby, this is supposed to be Snyder’s.

[Hurricane Billy]

Feel like the obvious answer is a Batman who:

-Has no sidekicks or spin off heroes to contrast with E0 Batman’s enormous family
-Is not a super genius who builds backup personalities
-Starts off solving cases and deal with gritty “real” crimes to contrast with E0 Batman fighting endless city destroying threats

Basically go back to grim and gritty grounded Batman.

Exactly. I think you could potentially have one Robin in the mix, but it'd have to be a deviation from the norm, which is why I think someone like Carrie Kelly could work in this context. However, this would definitely not be the place to have a broader, larger BatFamily. And again, for villains? Obviously include the classics, but this would be a great opportunity to focus more on less familiar or older iterations of villains like Golden Age Clayface or Hugo Strange, instead of rehashing the typical Joker or Two Face stories for the umpteenth time.

And again, I think this would be a fantastic outlet to bring in one of Bruce's less commonly used love interests aside from Selina or Talia. Personally I really love the idea of including Andrea Beaumont, but you could absolutely do a modern reimagining of Julie Madison or Silver St Cloud too.

[godisawesome]

I feel like, given that we’ve already seen someone try doing “Ultimate Batman” stripped down to the bone in “grim and gritty” stories with Geoff Johns’s Earth One, and it wound up just being a bit of a slog, and we’ve seen Frank Miller’s attempt at the same thing, and we’ve seen Snyder himself do an “early years” and then “climactic” Batman story…

I’d prefer seeing someone just try and make one, “momentum” and arc-focused “biography” seeking to just cover the entire career of a Bruce Wayne as a man, with the supporting cast also having arcs, and the only limits on them being what they bring to the table for him.

So, something like…

Main Arc: Bruce going from angry and lonely young man to a battle worn and weary veteran crime fighter and beloved patriarch who knows he’ll die in the line of duty, but will go out as an unabashed hero.

Main Supporting Characters: Alfred as his father figure during the early years before dying in Bruce’s prime, Catwoman as his love interest who is change by him but never quite gets “tamed,” a combined Andrea Beaumont/Talia Al Ghul as a woman he once loved dearly and loved him back before she sank into darkness under her father’s influence and for vengeance for her mother, Dick Grayson as his surrogate son and “family” heir, Jason Todd as the son he lost, Cassandra Cain as the “costumed” heir he rescued from a dark path, and Damian and Helena as his children grappling with a larger than life legacy.

Then just have a selection of important cases that define Bruce’s story, all featuring different “Big Bads” - with Joker maybe actually not making a “on-screen” appearance, but wreaking havoc between chapters.

[Leancarp900]

Instead of a billionaire make him a hero of the poor who fights the rich and corrupt elite taking advantage of Gotham.

It's probably a dumb idea but eh, it's all I could think of right now.

[out of control]

Feel like the obvious answer is a Batman who:

-Has no sidekicks or spin off heroes to contrast with E0 Batman’s enormous family
-Is not a super genius who builds backup personalities
-Starts off solving cases and deal with gritty “real” crimes to contrast with E0 Batman fighting endless city destroying threats

Basically go back to grim and gritty grounded Batman.

This ! This is it ! This is my dream Batman. I want to kiss you from your forehead, Vordan. You totally nailed it.

But i don't want Snyder on it. It should be either Brubaker&Rucka or Bendis.

[out of control]

Instead of a billionaire make him a hero of the poor who fights the rich and corrupt elite taking advantage of Gotham.

It's probably a dumb idea but eh, it's all I could think of right now.

Don't sell yourself short kid. (well, acutally i don't know your age but... lol) It is a very socially concious idea when you think about it.

[bat39]

Stealing this from Vordan's thread over in the Superman section:



Obviously DC's love for making as many Batman books as possible, especially under the Black Label, make this a bit trickier than it is for other DC heroes, but if the rumors are legitimate, there's no way they won't be doing an Ultimate Batman book of some sort in the mix.

Personally speaking, I'm not sure who I'd pick for the writer or artist, but the immediate thought that crossed my mind for Batman was very similar to my thoughts for what to do with an Ultimate Superman: Go back to the source and pull heavily from the Golden Age comics.

Focus heavily on the idea of Batman being a vigilante detective first and foremost working outside the law and is regularly avoiding contact with the police, including Commissioner Gordon. So no Bat Signal at the top of GCPD Headquarters. I'd push for a really lo-fi angle with Bruce having very limited and practical gear.

Obviously I'd suggest integrating a few post-Golden Age ideas and characters into the mix, primarily having Alfred present from the get go as Bruce's father figure and primary support and then eventually introduce Carrie Kelly as the sole Robin of this timeline. She's underutilized as a character in other books and if the idea here is to do things a bit differently than other Batman comics currently, she's a strong pick to have a Robin present. While classic villains like Joker, Catwoman, Clayface and Two Face will all be present in some capacity, the arch nemesis for Bruce here should be Hugo Strange as the ongoing Moriarty figure to Bruce's Sherlock Holmes. I'd also push for a modern reimagining of the Golden Age Clayface and have fun with the idea of a "Phantom of the Opera, Gotham City Edition" type story.

Rather than exploring romances with Catwoman or Talia, I'd actually push for this book to pull from Mask of the Phantasm and have Andrea Beaumont as Bruce's ongoing love interest and recurring antagonist as the Phantasm. Much like Carrie, Andrea is a criminally underutilized character in the Batman mythos and this would be a perfect chance to bring her to the limelight again.

Love your ideas!

I'd also go back to the early Golden Age comics for inspiration, as well as a few other sources, such as The Imposter, Zero Year, Gotham Noir, and Matt Reeves' The Batman film.

Gotham City is a real cesspool of crime and corruption. Wayne Enterprises is one of the few businesses left in town and its on the verge of bankruptcy. The politics are dysfunctional and city government practically non-existent, giving the space for organized crime and violent mobs to run amok. The likes of Carmine Falcone, Sal Maroni and Tony Zucco are carving the city up into their territories and are at perpetual war with each other, with the few remaining political and business elites, as well as law enforcements, living either in fear of them, or actively complicit.

Jim Gordon is an ex-cop, a former detective drummed out of the force on trumped-up charges, a divorced alcoholic who's now eking out a living as a PI.

Into this chaotic mess comes Bruce Wayne. Now in his mid-20's, Bruce has spent the better part of the past decade living and traveling overseas with his uncle, Phillip Kane. Phillip did his best to keep his nephew away from the city of his birth after the murder of his parents, but after his death, Bruce returns - initially with the intent of tracking down his parent's murderer. Bruce has inherited what's left of the Wayne fortune - hundreds of millions of dollars, but not quiet a billion. The Wayne legacy has faded into history in Gotham, so Bruce is able to return without much (or any) fanfare - setting up shop in a discrete brownstone. Bruce has spent years training as a detective and martial artist - not really from a perspective of wanting to become a vigilante, but more for the purpose of being able to handle himself as he investigates his parent's death. He starts venturing out into the night in various disguises, investigating various possibilities (Was it a Mob hit by one-time Mob boss Lew Moxon? Was Falcone, who once had ties to Thomas Wayne, responsible? Was it just, as a police claimed, a random mugger? A disgruntled employee from Martha Wayne's charity who once threatened her? Or are the whispers of a secret society controlling the destiny of Gotham possibly true?) He realizes that his skills are not completely up to the challenge of Gotham's streets, and after one or two close shaves, including a time when he's nearly beaten to death, he's almost on the verge of giving up. In despair he wanders into the abandoned and derelict Wayne Manor, falls into the cave which he once fell into as a child, and is surrounded by a swarm of bats...

Batman is thus born as a psychological weapon to give Bruce an edge on the streets as he continues his quest. The suit, at least initially, looks like a cross between the Year One suit and the 1939 Kane/Finger design. Batman enlists the aid of Gordon, whom Bruce remembers working the case as a young detective, and an initially reluctant Gordon agrees (deducing early on that Batman is Bruce Wayne, but choosing not to let on that he knows). As they work together against the underworld, Bruce gradually realizes that his parents' death is just a drop in the ocean of Gotham's sheer depravity. Before long, finding his parents' killer starts to take a bit of a backseat, as Bruce realizes there's so much more that needs to be done, and that truly honoring his parents would be continuing their legacy of service to the city.

Publicaly, Bruce Wayne starts out as a playboy just to stay under the radar and blend in, though he reconnects with his childhood friend Julie Madison and begins a relationship with her that he needs to keep at arms' length to prevent her from learning about Batman. He eventually takes charge of Wayne Enterprises though - or rather puts Lucius Fox in charge - and seeks to rebuild the family business in a bid to revitalize Gotham's legitimate economy.

Other significant early characters include cat-burglar Selina Kyle, Falcone lieutanant and fallen Gotham 'nobility' Oswald Cobblepot, the murderous criminal mastermind and cyber-terrorist known as the Riddler, and a certain scarred figure in make-up who laughs maniacally as he brutally butchers his victims...

Alfred eventually comes on the scene as the Wayne butler at the time of the murders who returns to Gotham, aiming to be of service to Bruce. Their relationship is a little different - more of a partnership that also becomes a little bit of a mentor-protegee relationship as Alfred (who's of course former MI6 and SAS) starts to train Bruce and further refine his skills.

[Gaius]

I'd actually lean into the pulp/Shadow origins of the character. He can still be reigned in in terms of tech he has but have him fight villains reimagined as if they walked right out of a 1930s Shadow pulp story.

[thwhtGuardian]

I'd actually lean into the pulp/Shadow origins of the character. He can still be reigned in in terms of tech he has but have him fight villains reimagined as if they walked right out of a 1930s Shadow pulp story.

Yeah, basically this. I'd really like to see him as secretive, pulpy hero that people honestly think might not really exist. You can't keep to that forever but it's a good place to start.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

-Victor LaValle
-Andrea Sorrento
- I'd make him an outsider in the superhero community. He's a slender detective with a focus on steatlh. His stories are urban horror-juggling street crime with an otherworldly vibe that isn't full of supernatural but can't be explained away with techno babble.
-a love interest could be Jakita Wagner of Planetary fame. They flirted during a crossover issue so I thought it could be a fun pairing.
-it could be a new character like Batman Beyond and has a trenchcoat like design.
-think Bruce if trained by Mister E from Books of Magic.
- failed to learn magic and has missing memories because of it.
- Sorrow from Ram V's run on detective feels like what his approach to Robin would be.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Instead of a billionaire make him a hero of the poor who fights the rich and corrupt elite taking advantage of Gotham.

It's probably a dumb idea but eh, it's all I could think of right now.

https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Batma...ren_Aronofsky)

Darren Aronofsky had a similar take so you are in good company.

[godisawesome]

Instead of a billionaire make him a hero of the poor who fights the rich and corrupt elite taking advantage of Gotham.

It's probably a dumb idea but eh, it's all I could think of right now.

Yeah, basically this. I'd really like to see him as secretive, pulpy hero that people honestly think might not really exist. You can't keep to that forever but it's a good place to start.

I’ve got some ideas inspired by these, though likely not quite what you guys were thinking:

Bruce as the lower-case “prince” of Gotham fighting the elites - The Waynes we’re still multi-millionaires when they were murdered, but “only” multi-millionaires, and there is no Wayne Enterprises, and instead only the Wayne Foundation... which, like the Renewall Fund in Matt Reeves’s universe, was hijacked by greedy elites and mobsters while Bruce has “only” his trust fund and the honored if somewhat modest Wayne Manor. Gotham’s corruption is also massively reinforced by not just featuring “expected” corruption, but also the stagnation and apathy of the upper classes; corrupt cops come in the form of both bribed thugs bought by the mob, but also a too-powerful, systemically racist and classist police union.

Bruce therefore still belongs to the patrician class, but less “actively” on his part, and his main long-term targets are almost exclusively upper clusters, and he even seeks to counter “legally clean” but corrupt institutions like the police union - Jim Gordon, for instance, only gets the Commissioner job as a “poison pill” from both the Union and City Hall to try and ruin his career, and a major story would be most of the police force walking out when Gordon actually succeeds in carrying out some reforms, with Batman helping Jim do his job in a way that is controversial on a national level in-story.

Bruce also forgoes just buying his tools and gadgets... but isn’t exactly strapped for cash or gear, since he usually keeps himself supplied and funded by robbing many of his targets - stealing caches of drug money, digitally stealing white collar criminals’ money to both redistribute and use, stealing and modifying the Batmobile from a particularly paranoid gangster or VIP, etc.

Bruce surgically setting up the Urban Legend Of Batman - Bruce doesn’t “patrol” in the costume, or in fact use it all that much in terms of time; he’s actually significantly more active in other disguises and less conspicuous spying gear. For every one night that Batman rips apart a hideout or safe-house, there’s weeks of Matches Malone acting as fence with ears in the underworld, or of Bruce digitally uncovering the trail of an enemy.

It’s just that when Batman strikes, it’s both incredibly dramatic, shocking, and yet still incredibly hard to prove - Bruce takes out electronic surveillance equipment before beginning his assaults, focuses mainly on stealth, and takes out any other evidence that he can, and tends to strike surgically anyhow.

Villains Reinterpreted for more of a Noir-style, restrained take - Far fewer outright costumes, far more varied MOs and motivations. Lock-Up is actually a major antagonist, as a fanatical supporter of the police union and a prison guard member of a “police gang.” Riddler is an ex-cop who focuses mostly on blackmail, and likes to prove himself “superior” by revealing cold cases that must be solved to undo his ransom-ware seizure of Gotham’s electrical grid, with the riddles hidden inside the solutions to the cold cases he was ordered to bury back in his days on the force. Catwoman is as much a rival to Batman as she is an ally and enemy. Harvey Dent was being blackmailed for a double life he was leading when he got scarred and becomes a Two-Face who’s more just enraged at Gotham than mentally unhinged. Joker is more explicitly a Jack Napier-style mad artist. The Court Of Owls lose some of their over-the-too features in exchange for being the main villains.