What is Crisis on Infinite Earths Legacy

[Zero Hunter]

I wouldn't say the whole era is ass (though Byrne definitely is), but it ended with "Grounded" and aside from "Death", it didn't produce any high profile iconic stories to compete with the ones the Bat corner was producing. Just standard fare material that is to its era what the Bronze age comics were to theirs. The difference is it had worse lore behind it and awkward attempts to bring back older stuff that no longer fit.

And I wouldn't lump the New 52 in that, particularly Morrison who brought the character back to his Golden Age roots before updating some
Silver/Bronze age stuff. New 52 Action makes Byrne look even worse in comparison

Dude Superman was almost a dead property back then. No one cared about the character. I can't think of one person I knew back then who was even reading Superman, and I knew quite a few people who were reading comics. Saying the Pre Crisis Superman was the gold standard is just wrong. It was a slowly dying franchise that just seemed outdated and corny. If Crisis had not happened and the franchise had not gotten that push that brought in so many new fans I would hate to see where the property might be today.

[Sandy Hausler]

What do you think will be Crisis on Infinite Earth's legacy today?

My opinion, in the grand scheme, while I still have fond memories of the story, it's one main earth idea is pretty much undone. The Multiverse has been back since 52. We are far from having only one Superman on the main earth, let alone the Multiverse. It seems we are in a more cluttered continuity than even early 80s DC was at the time.

With the return of the multiverse, it really doesn't have a legacy anymore -- and it doesn't need to. It was a fun story for the most part when it came out, but I never cared for its results. Long live the multiverse, I say!

[Jon-El]

I’m a diehard Bronze Age Superman fan. Thats when I started reading & I think the decade of the 70’s was really good for the character. I still go back & collect books I missed from that era. However, I admit by the early 80’s the books had lost something. I even thought they were boring at times. I hated to lose the Superman I knew & all the mythology around the character but I enjoyed the Byrne reboot. I’d say the period from 1986 - 1993 had some of my favorite Superman stories. I still prefer Superman who was Superboy & all that but the reboot brought some needed energy & freshness to me. DC was revitalized follow Crisis.

[kcekada]

I’m a diehard Bronze Age Superman fan. Thats when I started reading & I think the decade of the 70’s was really good for the character. I still go back & collect books I missed from that era. However, I admit by the early 80’s the books had lost something.

DC was doing interesting stuff in the early 1970s, but by the middle of the decade -- they were throwing too many things against the wall to see what would stick. Then the implosion happened. The most interesting elements of the early Bronze Age Superman had mostly been lost, and his stories just weren't interesting. That happened with most of the DC's product and was why I left DC for Marvel. Heck, Superboy wouldn't even have been known outside of Legion. When they brought back his own series -- it was painfully lame.

The Wolfman/Perez Titans heralded a new era -- and things like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing followed. For whatever reason, TPTB felt the parallel Earths were a roadblock to reading DC's comics (can't see how they were when I immediately understood the concept at the age of 10).

There is no doubt that both Superman and Wonder Woman could have been taken over by Byrne and Perez with a new direction and a new number one instead of starting from scratch -- albeit WW's reboot was harder than Supes'.

[Doctor Know]

I have been searching my DTV DVDs for an interview about Superman they did for the special features. I can't remember if it was Paul Levitz or Marv Wolfman. However, they said something to the effect of finding most of the Silver and Bronze Age stories innocuous and boring. For instance, a story would start with Superman coming back from some grand adventure in space; that we didn't see. Only for him to go to his day job in an office and have a monotonous misadventure with Lois and Jimmy that was common for that era.


The Bronze Age certainly has more memorable/standout stories than the Silver Age, despite the volume of Silver Age titles.

Kryptonite Nevermore - Superman #233-238 and #240-242: Denny O'Neil's Sandman Saga.

Action Comics #472-473: Debut of Faora-Ul. The man-slayer of Krypton. At this time in Superman's history, General Zod was a second tier villain. Faora was a murderer on Krypton and played for blood on Earth. This story from 1977 was used as inspiration for the Zod, Ursa (Faora) and Non (Quex-Ul) we would see in 1978/1980 of Superman The Movie and Superman II. Since Donner filmed both flicks at the same time.

Action Comics #528-530: A reprogramed and "reformed" Brainiac assists Superman in stopping a planet-eating machine planet (that is not Warworld). Only to reveal his true color, but Superman ends up imprisoning Brainiac in the machine planet's core.

Action Comics #544 - Action Comics #546: Where George Perez redesigned Luthor and Brainiac. Luthor dropping his Superfriends Tactical attire for the famous Power Armor. Brainiac went from being a green skinned alien with not pants, in a flying saucer. To an exo-skeleton machine, with the beehive head and the flying skull ship. The culmination of this story involved Superman leading the JLA and New Teen Titans against the New Brainiac.

Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow (Superman #423 and Action Comics #583) and For the Man Who Has Everything (Superman Annual #11).


Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone Series #1-4 and DC Comics Presents #97.


All these stories are from the Bronze Age. While Superman wasn't completely without hitters from this era. Given the volume of titles he was on, his list should be a lot longer and a lot stronger. Compared to what his contemporaries of the time were doing such as:

Spider-Man (Stan Lee, Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Roger Stern)
Batman (Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and Gerry Conway)
Daredevil (Frank Miller)
Uncanny X-Men (Chris Claremont and John Byrne)
New Teen Titans (Marv Wolfman and George Perez)
Fantastic Four (Stan Lee/Jack Kirby and John Byrne)
Iron Man (David Michelline)
Legion of Superheroes (Paul Levitz)
Justice League of America (Gerry Conway from the Satellite years through the Detroit years)


Without thinking about it too hard, you could list a plurality of stories from the 60s, 70s, 80s era of these titles with ease. For Superman, that didn't happen until post-Crisis. What I noticed about the Pre-Crisis Superman titles and that has continued to today. Is author and artist teams who aren't committed to stay on Superman's books for more than a handful of issues. You get a joker who does 6 issues (or enough to fill a trade paperback) and they think accomplished something. Count the number of dime o' dozen day one origins that never get sequels Superman has sometime.

Looking at the list above, you noticed most of those creators gave 4-10 years on a property before leaving. Like Mark Grunewald's 10 year run on Captain America (1985-1995). I didn't list it above because it's Modern Age to 90s. If more author's stayed longer than a handful of issues, maybe there would be more memorable stories we could all call back to. At the same time, for the Silver Age and Bronze Age, it was also a matter of demographics. Superman's core audience was younger kids. So the Saturday morning cartoon nature of the various comics didn't really matter. Spider-Man is also geared toward kids, but it's been successfully pulling off continuity storytelling since it's inception. Maybe Superman should take a cue from Spider-Man books... (The John Byrne Run stands menacingly in the background waiting to be embraced).

Fear not. At least some people dig Byrne's run. Myself included.

[Username taken]

I’m a diehard Bronze Age Superman fan. Thats when I started reading & I think the decade of the 70’s was really good for the character. I still go back & collect books I missed from that era. However, I admit by the early 80’s the books had lost something. I even thought they were boring at times. I hated to lose the Superman I knew & all the mythology around the character but I enjoyed the Byrne reboot. I’d say the period from 1986 - 1993 had some of my favorite Superman stories. I still prefer Superman who was Superboy & all that but the reboot brought some needed energy & freshness to me. DC was revitalized follow Crisis.

Dude Superman was almost a dead property back then. No one cared about the character. I can't think of one person I knew back then who was even reading Superman, and I knew quite a few people who were reading comics. Saying the Pre Crisis Superman was the gold standard is just wrong. It was a slowly dying franchise that just seemed outdated and corny. If Crisis had not happened and the franchise had not gotten that push that brought in so many new fans I would hate to see where the property might be today.

I agree with this.

Prior to Crisis, Superman (and a lot of DC titles) weren't working at all and weren't selling. A few years before Crisis, DC was almost licensing these characters to Marvel, the Crisis was necessary. Things were really bad for DC back then (except for Teen Titans).

John Byrne's reboot is still considered the gold standard for a reboot (even the way the character was depicted and drawn changed after Byrne's work) and even after Johns undid a lot of it, Byrne's Superman is still the basis of the modern-day Superman.

DC almost giving up their characters to Marvel is all one needs to know about the Pre-Crisis DC state.

[kcekada]

However, they said something to the effect of finding most of the Silver and Bronze Age stories innocuous and boring. For instance, a story would start with Superman coming back from some grand adventure in space; that we didn't see. Only for him to go to his day job in an office and have a monotonous misadventure with Lois and Jimmy that was common for that era.

That's very true. Superman's tales were not action-oriented as he had no foes worthy of his powers. The Kryptonite No More story reduced his powers so he wasn't a virtual cosmic god as he was in the Silver Age. I think Denny O'Neil had something to do with it, but that era was fairly short. Both Superman's and Batman's books were low-sellers because DC stuck with a formula that wasn't appealing.

[Stingo]

The animate version may be more palatable to you, but it will be a watered-down retelling to those of us who were there when the original was released. It was definitely a superb culmination of both the Silver and Bronze Ages. As soon as I saw the Crime Syndicate go out as heroes in the first issue, I knew the series was something special. It simply couldn't have the same effect on someone reading it 40 years later -- and not being versed in the stories that led to it.

And at 12 issues, there is a lot to digest for someone unfamiliar with that era's characters.

As someone who bought all 12 issues of Crisis On Infinite Earths at both my local drugstore and a nearby comic book shop as they were released, I totally agree with your thoughts on this: You HAD to be there in some regards to appreciate what Wolfman and Co. were attempting to pull off. As a towheaded 12 year old at the time, I had a horse in that particular maxi-series in the form of Earth-Two and everything that Roy Thomas had worked so hard to establish with his retroactive continuity. Each issue of Crisis was a bit like holding my breath as I prayed that my favorite Golden Age characters on Earth-Two and Earth-X would make it out unscathed. As it turns out, I had good reason to be nervous - lol.

Marv Wolfman was clearly playing for all of the marbles in his huge and epic storytelling endeavor and it was breathtaking to behold for most of us fans that lived and breathed the comic book oxygen of 1985-'86.

If I may, I also want to sing the praises of Crisis in the sense that the story which Marv was telling was deeply spiritual in nature. Looking back on it almost 40 years removed, it's almost shockingly so. I don't believe the corporate overlords that run DC in this day and age would ever allow for such a tone now.

[All Star Superman]

You can't really go into COIE blind. It does require at least a semi-working understanding of the DCU leading up to it. "Normies" would read the first issue and wonder why there's an older Superman with an odd S. My biggest hang up with it is how it just "threw away" popular characters like E-2 Superman and Huntress. I kind of hoped they would find some way to salvage E-2 if nothing else. Even if they don't go back to it. But I don't know that there would have been any way to do that. I think the better way to do a reboot would be to "wind down" the old universes by giving all those characters a happy ending and starting from scratch. ALA Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? And then just start the "new" universe with no mentions of the old universes. They're still out there but we're not going back to them.

The other option would be to restore a pre-COIE status quo by de-merging the five universes that comprised New Earth. This could have the effect (somehow) of resetting the true pre-COIE Multiverse, restoring the original Earth-One, Earth-Two, etc. Most of the post-COIE stories still happened, they just happened with crossovers between Earths. Meanwhile, that post-COIE through Dark Crisis continuity can exist in a separate universe, while DC focuses on using the pre-COIE Earths (One, Two, Three, Five, and others as needed) as the basis for a rebooted DCU. Restore the pre-COIE status quo for most of the characters but update the setting and get the best creators involved for each title.

If Crisis had not happened and the franchise had not gotten that push that brought in so many new fans I would hate to see where the property might be today.

DC's titles and characters needed a boost, including Superman. Destroying the Multiverse was an explosion that caused damage we're still dealing with almost half a century later. The better solution would have been "both/and" instead of "either/or."

With the return of the multiverse, it really doesn't have a legacy anymore -- and it doesn't need to. It was a fun story for the most part when it came out, but I never cared for its results. Long live the multiverse, I say!

Agreed, though we all know DC is going to milk the 50th anniversary all they can in 2025. I'd like to see them undo the story for good and create a new DCU based on the pre-COIE status quo while allowing everything that's happened since 1986 to exist in another universe. It's time to move on from the patchwork nightmare that the DCU has been for decades.

The Wolfman/Perez Titans heralded a new era -- and things like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing followed. For whatever reason, TPTB felt the parallel Earths were a roadblock to reading DC's comics (can't see how they were when I immediately understood the concept at the age of 10).

There is no doubt that both Superman and Wonder Woman could have been taken over by Byrne and Perez with a new direction and a new number one instead of starting from scratch -- albeit WW's reboot was harder than Supes'.

I didn't have any problems understanding the concept as a kid, either, and I was about six or so when my brother let me look through one of the early BA JLA/JSA crossovers. I was fascinated, not confused or put off, by multiple versions of characters and Earths. Also, apparently Moore had an idea that would have revamped the Superman books without a full reboot, but DC and WB execs wanted the concept erased completely.

I have been searching my DTV DVDs for an interview about Superman they did for the special features. I can't remember if it was Paul Levitz or Marv Wolfman. However, they said something to the effect of finding most of the Silver and Bronze Age stories innocuous and boring. For instance, a story would start with Superman coming back from some grand adventure in space; that we didn't see. Only for him to go to his day job in an office and have a monotonous misadventure with Lois and Jimmy that was common for that era.


The Bronze Age certainly has more memorable/standout stories than the Silver Age, despite the volume of Silver Age titles.

Kryptonite Nevermore - Superman #233-238 and #240-242: Denny O'Neil's Sandman Saga.

Action Comics #472-473: Debut of Faora-Ul. The man-slayer of Krypton. At this time in Superman's history, General Zod was a second tier villain. Faora was a murderer on Krypton and played for blood on Earth. This story from 1977 was used as inspiration for the Zod, Ursa (Faora) and Non (Quex-Ul) we would see in 1978/1980 of Superman The Movie and Superman II. Since Donner filmed both flicks at the same time.

Action Comics #528-530: A reprogramed and "reformed" Brainiac assists Superman in stopping a planet-eating machine planet (that is not Warworld). Only to reveal his true color, but Superman ends up imprisoning Brainiac in the machine planet's core.

Action Comics #544 - Action Comics #546: Where George Perez redesigned Luthor and Brainiac. Luthor dropping his Superfriends Tactical attire for the famous Power Armor. Brainiac went from being a green skinned alien with not pants, in a flying saucer. To an exo-skeleton machine, with the beehive head and the flying skull ship. The culmination of this story involved Superman leading the JLA and New Teen Titans against the New Brainiac.

Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow (Superman #423 and Action Comics #583) and For the Man Who Has Everything (Superman Annual #11).


Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone Series #1-4 and DC Comics Presents #97.


All these stories are from the Bronze Age. While Superman wasn't completely without hitters from this era. Given the volume of titles he was on, his list should be a lot longer and a lot stronger. Compared to what his contemporaries of the time were doing such as:

Spider-Man (Stan Lee, Len Wein, Gerry Conway, Roger Stern)
Batman (Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and Gerry Conway)
Daredevil (Frank Miller)
Uncanny X-Men (Chris Claremont and John Byrne)
New Teen Titans (Marv Wolfman and George Perez)
Fantastic Four (Stan Lee/Jack Kirby and John Byrne)
Iron Man (David Michelline)
Legion of Superheroes (Paul Levitz)
Justice League of America (Gerry Conway from the Satellite years through the Detroit years)


Without thinking about it too hard, you could list a plurality of stories from the 60s, 70s, 80s era of these titles with ease. For Superman, that didn't happen until post-Crisis. What I noticed about the Pre-Crisis Superman titles and that has continued to today. Is author and artist teams who aren't committed to stay on Superman's books for more than a handful of issues. You get a joker who does 6 issues (or enough to fill a trade paperback) and they think accomplished something. Count the number of dime o' dozen day one origins that never get sequels Superman has sometime.

Looking at the list above, you noticed most of those creators gave 4-10 years on a property before leaving. Like Mark Grunewald's 10 year run on Captain America (1985-1995). I didn't list it above because it's Modern Age to 90s. If more author's stayed longer than a handful of issues, maybe there would be more memorable stories we could all call back to. At the same time, for the Silver Age and Bronze Age, it was also a matter of demographics. Superman's core audience was younger kids. So the Saturday morning cartoon nature of the various comics didn't really matter. Spider-Man is also geared toward kids, but it's been successfully pulling off continuity storytelling since it's inception. Maybe Superman should take a cue from Spider-Man books... (The John Byrne Run stands menacingly in the background waiting to be embraced).

Fear not. At least some people dig Byrne's run. Myself included.

Thank you for sharing this list of notable BA Superman stories. There were many other standouts as well, though one of my favorites remains that Brainiac story you mentioned. I re-read it recently and think it would make for an excellent animated or even live-action epic.

I agree with this.

Prior to Crisis, Superman (and a lot of DC titles) weren't working at all and weren't selling. A few years before Crisis, DC was almost licensing these characters to Marvel, the Crisis was necessary. Things were really bad for DC back then (except for Teen Titans).

John Byrne's reboot is still considered the gold standard for a reboot (even the way the character was depicted and drawn changed after Byrne's work) and even after Johns undid a lot of it, Byrne's Superman is still the basis of the modern-day Superman.

DC almost giving up their characters to Marvel is all one needs to know about the Pre-Crisis DC state.

Some kind of new initiative was needed to bring in new readers, but destroying the Multiverse wasn't it. After all, DC pioneered the use of the concept in comic books. It was one of their signature concepts and one that even Marvel didn't do much with outside of What If? and occasional in-continuity stories. I loved Byrne's work on Superman (except for removing Superboy and all the damage that caused) but there were options other than destroying the Multiverse that both Byrne and Moore have alluded to in the past.

[DrNewGod]

...You HAD to be there in some regards to appreciate what Wolfman and Co. were attempting to pull off...Each issue of Crisis was a bit like holding my breath as I prayed that my favorite Golden Age characters on Earth-Two and Earth-X would make it out unscathed...

That's a very good point. Folk that grew up with DCs Silver or Bronze Age comic probably have a completely different perspective on it than other fans. Additionally, there had been crossovers before, some fair sized ones in Marvel's team comics, but absolutely nothing on CoIE's scale.

[blunt_eastwood]

That's a very good point. Folk that grew up with DCs Silver or Bronze Age comic probably have a completely different perspective on it than other fans. Additionally, there had been crossovers before, some fair sized ones in Marvel's team comics, but absolutely nothing on CoIE's scale.

That's what reading Infinite Crisis was like for me (I started reading comics in the 90's at age 10). I couldn't wait to read each issue because anything could happen. It sucks that now most of the events of any consequence have been undone.

[superduperman]

I agree with this.

Prior to Crisis, Superman (and a lot of DC titles) weren't working at all and weren't selling. A few years before Crisis, DC was almost licensing these characters to Marvel, the Crisis was necessary. Things were really bad for DC back then (except for Teen Titans).

John Byrne's reboot is still considered the gold standard for a reboot (even the way the character was depicted and drawn changed after Byrne's work) and even after Johns undid a lot of it, Byrne's Superman is still the basis of the modern-day Superman.

DC almost giving up their characters to Marvel is all one needs to know about the Pre-Crisis DC state.

While I don't agree with all the changes that were made to Superman, the fact of the matter is, some kind of reboot was necessary to save the character. And a lot of the SA stuff needed to be stripped away.

[Johnny Thunders!]

It’s crazy that this discussion has become so Superman oriented? Anyways, I think it’s fair to say that Superman was out of touch by the mid and late eighties. I was reading Superman then but I was also reading Frank Millers Daredevil and Byrnes X Men, Superman did seem out of step. But I reject how Superman comics are characterized from that time . The last few Curt Swan Elliot S Maggin Superman comics are out there, weird, smart sci fi Superman comics. And even the Silver Age stuff, yeah there’s flying monkeys but there are also strange interesting big idea Superman fables. After the crisis , all that stuff was replaced by Superman, the regular guy. It was more personal like Marvel comics but in my opinion, not as adventurous. I recommend anyone who hasn’t read Silver Age or Bronze Age Superman comics , Robert Kirkman has, and read Invincible, that book takes a very Silver Age Superman turn, theres more flying guts and stuff, but decidedly fanciful just like old Superman comics.

[All Star Superman]

It’s crazy that this discussion has become so Superman oriented? Anyways, I think it’s fair to say that Superman was out of touch by the mid and late eighties. I was reading Superman then but I was also reading Frank Millers Daredevil and Byrnes X Men, Superman did seem out of step. But I reject how Superman comics are characterized from that time . The last few Curt Swan Elliot S Maggin Superman comics are out there, weird, smart sci fi Superman comics. And even the Silver Age stuff, yeah there’s flying monkeys but there are also strange interesting big idea Superman fables. After the crisis , all that stuff was replaced by Superman, the regular guy. It was more personal like Marvel comics but in my opinion, not as adventurous. I recommend anyone who hasn’t read Silver Age or Bronze Age Superman comics , Robert Kirkman has, and read Invincible, that book takes a very Silver Age Superman turn, theres more flying guts and stuff, but decidedly fanciful just like old Superman comics.

Agreed. Many people crap on the Silver and Bronze Age eras (and not just Superman's) but have read one or two stories, if any at all.

[All Star Superman]

While I don't agree with all the changes that were made to Superman, the fact of the matter is, some kind of reboot was necessary to save the character. And a lot of the SA stuff needed to be stripped away.

A reboot was not necessary to save Superman. Alan Moore, Frank Miller, and even Byrne pitched revamps that didn't toss out the SA/BA continuities.

As for the SA stuff "needing to be stripped away," the truth is, a lot of it was and remains iconic and unlike anything else in comic book history. Later stories since COIE have proven that the Silver Age mythology doesn't need to be discarded or ignored, especially All-Star Superman and Johns' run on Action Comics. Don't condemn something simply because you don't appreciate it.