What is Crisis on Infinite Earths Legacy

[kingaliencracker]

My take, is that graphic novels that should not have been main continuity ( or were not intended to be such) becoming so popular that the " elseworlds" continuities get forced onto the main continuity.

Was Hawkworld intended to be main post crisis continuity? Longbow Hunters? Kingdom Come? Yet all of those books ( negativity, imo) impacted the main post Crisis continuity.....

Hawkworld and Longbow Hunters were canon. But Hawkworld was supposed to be an origin story set in the past until the editor decided to make it happening in the present. I guess he didn't realize or care that Katar Hol and Shayera Thal had already made several appearances in the post-Crisis DCU. This ultimately rendered the Thanagarian Hawkman unusable for several years.

[kingaliencracker]

People talk about pre-Crisis Superman in glowing terms yet the only pre-Crisis stories that are still remembered are all written by Alan Moore as standalone stuff. Even if we accept that Silver Age stuff was silly and we start from Bronze Age, how come Superman didn't have something on the level of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge', 'Night of the Stalker', 'The Demon Lives Again', 'Strange Apparitions'? Why was he still stuck just doing the same dance with random villain of the week in the exact type of stories for decades?

I looked at the Action Comics covers from early 1980s and it seemed like Superman was stagnant for 25 years starting from late 1950s. While Spider-Man, X-Men and Fantastic Four were having epic adventures in their comics, Superman was still relying on clickbait covers to sell issues. It was sad to see his stories being so basic and generic even in the early 1980s.

I think people just love the idea of pre-Crisis Superman but actually reading his stories is a slog.

There are certainly a few pre-Crisis Superman stories that I love, but for the most part you're right. Peak Superman was 1988-1993 as far as I'm concerned.

[Triniking1234]

People talk about pre-Crisis Superman in glowing terms yet the only pre-Crisis stories that are still remembered are all written by Alan Moore as standalone stuff. Even if we accept that Silver Age stuff was silly and we start from Bronze Age, how come Superman didn't have something on the level of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge', 'Night of the Stalker', 'The Demon Lives Again', 'Strange Apparitions'? Why was he still stuck just doing the same dance with random villain of the week in the exact type of stories for decades?

I looked at the Action Comics covers from early 1980s and it seemed like Superman was stagnant for 25 years starting from late 1950s. While Spider-Man, X-Men and Fantastic Four were having epic adventures in their comics, Superman was still relying on clickbait covers to sell issues. It was sad to see his stories being so basic and generic even in the early 1980s.

I think people just love the idea of pre-Crisis Superman but actually reading his stories is a slog.

I remember when New Teen Titans referenced an old Superman pre-Crisis story and it was some crap about he got split into two with magic and each body had specific halves of his powers. Plus they dragged it out. It was horrid.

[kingaliencracker]

I remember when New Teen Titans referenced an old Superman pre-Crisis story and it was some crap about he got split into two with magic and each body had specific halves of his powers. Plus they dragged it out. It was horrid.

Are you talking about the Sandman Saga?

[Triniking1234]

Are you talking about the Sandman Saga?

It had a name?

[kingaliencracker]

It had a name?

If it was the story where the Sandman being takes some of Superman's powers, then yes.

[kcekada]

I think that more and more people are accepting the fact that it was original sin that started the destruction of DC universe.

Yeah, that became clear in the past decade. But even shortly afterwards -- the Crisis had limited storytelling and characters to such a degree that DC was constantly trying to peddle new fixes.

Frankly, the series was epic -- the legacy is pure disaster.

[kcekada]

Hawkworld and Longbow Hunters were canon. But Hawkworld was supposed to be an origin story set in the past until the editor decided to make it happening in the present. I guess he didn't realize or care that Katar Hol and Shayera Thal had already made several appearances in the post-Crisis DCU. This ultimately rendered the Thanagarian Hawkman unusable for several years.

Hawkword the mini-series was amazing. The ongoing series that followed was just okay -- and got by for a while on the momentum of the mini-series. John Ostrander is an amazing writer, but I didn't love the update on the Hawks. The silver age duo was more interesting, IMHO. The Green Arrow series following Longbow Hunters was pretty good for a while, but also got tired after a while -- especially when Grell refused to let Ollie and Dinah be a superheroes.

[Triniking1234]

If it was the story where the Sandman being takes some of Superman's powers, then yes.

I double checked it and the villain was Lord Satanis. The Omega Men show up in AC #535.

[kingaliencracker]

I double checked it and the villain was Lord Satanis. The Omega Men show up in AC #535.

Oh. Then, it's not the same story.

[Doctor Know]

People talk about pre-Crisis Superman in glowing terms yet the only pre-Crisis stories that are still remembered are all written by Alan Moore as standalone stuff. Even if we accept that Silver Age stuff was silly and we start from Bronze Age, how come Superman didn't have something on the level of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge', 'Night of the Stalker', 'The Demon Lives Again', 'Strange Apparitions'? Why was he still stuck just doing the same dance with random villain of the week in the exact type of stories for decades?

I looked at the Action Comics covers from early 1980s and it seemed like Superman was stagnant for 25 years starting from late 1950s. While Spider-Man, X-Men and Fantastic Four were having epic adventures in their comics, Superman was still relying on clickbait covers to sell issues. It was sad to see his stories being so basic and generic even in the early 1980s.

I think people just love the idea of pre-Crisis Superman but actually reading his stories is a slog.

There are certainly a few pre-Crisis Superman stories that I love, but for the most part you're right. Peak Superman was 1988-1993 as far as I'm concerned.

@Laser_Man You're certainly right about that. I think it's a combination of things that have contributed to Silver Age's Superman's distorted legacy.

1. The demographic of Silver Age Superman stories skewed younger. Leading to more standalone stories and nothing longform like we saw with Batman, Spider-Man or Avengers from the same time period.

2. Rose-tinted nostalgia from kids who became adults. Their own projections leading to their now adult judgement that the Silver Age Supes was top-tier and had it all perfect.

3. Superman The Movie (1978). This right here is what I think the majority of people supplant in their head as THE representative of Silver Age Superman.

A. It came out in the late 70s; technically Bronze Age, but the transition from Silver to Bronze has never been an official quantifiable date.

B. Most people saw the film during the hype of the late 70s sci-fi craze: Star Wars 1977, Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind 1977, Star Trek TMP 1979, James Bond Moonraker 1979, Alien 1979 (Starro's face-hugging would become a staple after this film, in 1981 Justice League of America vol 1 #189-190.

C. The post-Vietnam War optimism after the end of the war and Fall of Saigon 1975. America lost the war, despite Nixon basically declaring victory and leaving. A move paralleled by Obama with Iraq in 2010 and Biden with Afghanistan in 2021. Here comes a Superman who is patriotic and willing to fight for Truth, Justice, and the American Way. It meant a lot for a lot of people to hear those words back in 1978. A similar phenomenon was witnessed with Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1 from 2002. THE Blockbuster after the 9/11 Terrorism attacks. Patriot American Virtue Heroes sell.


I digress. Time for a picture show.

What people think the Silver Age Superman era was like:







(All Pictures here are from the Bronze Age).

[Doctor Know]

What the Silver Age was actually like:

[James Cameron]

What the Silver Age was actually like:

Peak Superman. No question.

[Johnny Thunders!]

What the Silver Age was actually like:

I strongly disagree, these are Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane comics which have more in common with Archie Comics.
Silver Age Superman, though geared towards children were often much more exciting.

Jim Shooter's Legion of Superheroes hits many of the dramatic and emotional moments found later in Bronze Age X-Men and Avengers.
Superman and Action comics introduced us to the Phantom Zone, Braniac, Bizarro, and the concept of the multiverse. There would be no What If or Elseworlds without Superman's "Imaginary Stories." The Silver Age stories, though often campy and silly, were also thrilling and sometimes subversively psychological.

But yeah, still peak Superman in that Superman could be an action hero, hard sci fi stories, romance comics, and even the whole evil Superman trope, that starts in the Silver Age.

[SiegePerilous02]

People talk about pre-Crisis Superman in glowing terms yet the only pre-Crisis stories that are still remembered are all written by Alan Moore as standalone stuff. Even if we accept that Silver Age stuff was silly and we start from Bronze Age, how come Superman didn't have something on the level of 'The Joker's Five-Way Revenge', 'Night of the Stalker', 'The Demon Lives Again', 'Strange Apparitions'? Why was he still stuck just doing the same dance with random villain of the week in the exact type of stories for decades?

We also have Elliot S! Maggin's stories "Must There be a Superman?", "The Einstein Connection" and "the Luthor Nobody Knows" among others (and his novels). And the Phantom Zone miniseries by Steve Gerber. There is also the Legion of Superheroes having their peak of popularity during pre-Crisis and they were essentially a Superman tie in book.

I think people just love the idea of pre-Crisis Superman but actually reading his stories is a slog.

There are certainly a few pre-Crisis Superman stories that I love, but for the most part you're right. Peak Superman was 1988-1993 as far as I'm concerned.

There are slogs in every era. Personally, I bought a few of the TPBs that collected Byrne and the early post-Crisis era, and they were more of a slog than any of the better pre-Crisis stories. Both eras are from before I was born, so I don't have direct nostalgia for either and I think the two camps are nostalgia vs. nostalgia in general.

"Death of Superman" is also the only single story we can hold up from the post-Crisis era that manages to be noteworthy, and it's pretty overrated that hasn't had the best long term impact on the character. Outside of the marriage and Doomsday, there aren't any iconic elements that came from that era anyway.