Pro Wrestling! (For Everything WWE, Impact, Indies, AEW, & Japan !) 2024

[BeastieRunner]

Well if were doing coaches....its like Bill Cowher who coached for years and doesn't want to coach anymore as he'd prefer spending more time with his family after years of coaching. Or Jimmy Johnson ...or Rex Ryan (who is a brilliant defensive coach , not so good head coach) . Then teams blasting these guys for being out of touch , even though for years teams would call these guys , begging them to return lol.

Both men have repeatedly said they don't wanna work anymore. They have said this a lot. Why AEW fans believe that they are sitting , angry on sidelines over it all is kinda funny. I'm sure if AEW is around in a decade and 70-80 year old Cornette and Bischoff discuss something fans will continue on..."Those carny jackoffs just are angry they aren't working !"

They sound more angry that they don't understand current trends and that kids these days don't do what they think/want them to do.
Michaels didn't understand the current spot trends and HHH explained it to him and changed his ways.

Don't think Corny or Eric could ever admit they're wrong.

Offering your knowledge tree ala Henry, ADBD, Truth, or Arn is vastly different than beating people with it or chasing them like Punk, Patterson, Hardys, or Ace.

Jim Cornette has many faults and stuck in his way of what pro wrestling should be, but the guy isn't out-of-touch. The thing he's said consistently is many talents on AEW can be big names, but they need training and experience under their belts. I don't watch Bischoff stuff much anymore, but I think he's had good assessments at times.

From what I can tell, both seems okay not being active in pro wrestling anymore.

Saying you don't want to work in an industry you loved after being canned and/or forced to leave is often code.

When I see things like, "I just don't get X" or "Y should dress this way" when X has out drew and has more views than their podcast and Y has a unique look even thought they're already over is textbook out-of-touch IMHO.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They sound more angry that they don't understand current trends and that kids these days don't do what they think/want them to do.
Michaels didn't understand the current spot trends and HHH explained it to him and changed his ways.

Don't think Corny or Eric could ever admit they're wrong.

Offering your knowledge tree ala Henry, ADBD, Truth, or Arn is vastly different than beating people with it or chasing them like Punk, Patterson, Hardys, or Ace.


Saying you don't want to work in an industry you loved after being canned and/or forced to leave is often code.

When I see things like, "I just don't get X" or "Y should dress this way" when X has out drew and has more views than their podcast and Y has a unique look even thought they're already over is textbook out-of-touch IMHO.

We have to understand...a lot of the kids today want to f'n kill themselves in spots that really , do nothing for them on shows. A fact if they look at the Mick Foley's , the Jeff Hardy's ...they should sit and go...oooh f-ck. These guys are in pain and having health issues in their 40s. Maybe we should listen to these old guys.

A lot of it is...Bischoff knows about character , gimmick , production etc. He's been there...he's ran a national product and he helped a company make a half a billion dollars in its good years. Sure his own leadership and over spending killed that same product....but he knows the beast that Tony is running in.

Cornette ...not so much. He booked a regional product but he set in on booking committees and knows how storylines can be built in pro wrestling product. (a fact Tony is having issues with as we know)

In all sure ...these guys have negatives , but the positives they have...equal it out. And in WWE , those guys doing wild spots will be ones where the spots they do...the BIG ONES....Shawn and HHH will make sure ...they matter. They aren't gonna try and kill themselves on an episode of RAW or NXT each week. To make the spots really be forgotten.

[exile001]

A lot of it is...Bischoff knows about character , gimmick , production etc. He's been there...he's ran a national product and he helped a company make a half a billion dollars in its good years. Sure his own leadership and over spending killed that same product....but he knows the beast that Tony is running in.

Bischoff got lucky because the two ideas he had (Hogan and tribalism against WWE) finally worked out for a year and a half. Everything around that was just dressing he gave little effort/attention to and the guy is still riding off that short period of success (while believing he was overall a genuine success).

Think of every talent, angle and advantage he managed to utterly fumble (heck, in many cases gift wrap for the WWE!). It's a hell of a lot bigger than his few genuine successes. This is a man who gave PPVs to a biker rally because he liked bikes. The fucking Kiss Demon because he liked Kiss. The man is a buffoon.

His main achievement/skill was convincing network people to keep him employed and their wallets open.

That might sound a little harsh (and maybe is), but the guy was not good at his job.

There are so few who have actually run a wrestling company on such a large stage that he gets a pass largely because he was for doing it for years.

However, as has been covered to death, Turner wanted wrestling and funded it until, for a brief moment, it became truly profitable, and continued to do so long after. WCW wasn't going anywhere so Bischoff just got chance after chance until it hit midday and his stopped clock was finally right. Then it got to 12.01 and he was wrong again.

In any sensible industry Bischoff wouldn't have lasted to '96 and would have been gone long before he'd run the NWO into the ground, let alone WCW itself.

That people still believe his self-masturbatory ego stroking in the face of almost unlimited evidence to the contrary is baffling to me.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Bischoff got lucky because the two ideas he had (Hogan and tribalism against WWE) finally worked out for a year and a half. Everything around that was just dressing he gave little effort/attention to and the guy is still riding off that short period of success (while believing he was overall a genuine success).

I don't believe it was luck though. Bischoff had copied a Japan storyline he saw and decided to use it for this. Sure having ex-WWF guys worked and once he got Hogan in it , yep it went into over drive. But almost every element of the NWO was an "invasion" from up north and it clicked with audiences. WCW had never been seen on WWF's level and was considered a small southern promotion. The NWO took WCW to make it a true national product like Bischoff wanted.

Think of every talent, angle and advantage he managed to utterly fumble (heck, in many cases gift wrap for the WWE!). It's a hell of a lot bigger than his few genuine successes. This is a man who gave PPVs to a biker rally because he liked bikes. The fucking Kiss Demon because he liked Kiss. The man is a buffoon.

The biker rally situation was foolish on the fact they didn't pay a gate. The idea was to build a PPV after Bash at the Beach (1995) that took place on a beach setting with people attending. That was likely his idea to do it where a large group of people were at.

Bischoff's folly was he should have charged attendance at the Sturgis Rally (which is attended by thousands) for Hog/Road Wild. But Bischoff was going off what the PPV buys would be and as crazy as it sounds...Hog/Road Wild did very well there...

220,000 PPV Buys - 1996
240,000 PPV Buys - 1997
365,000 PPV Buys - 1998
235,000 PPV Buys - 1999

In fact that last Road Wild PPV was the last big time drawing WCW PPV. In fact no other PPV would do as well. That is the thing ....Bischoff wasn't wrong holding a PPV at Sturgis Biker rally. He was wrong in not charging attendance. His PPV was different which helped.

https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/...s-ppv-buyrate/

Also WWF was also after Kiss as well in this time period. They were wanting to do a deal as well. So it wasn't just Bischoff out there trying to throw money at various people. WWF paid for Motley Crue to perform and Bischoff did the same with a country music star (name escapes me) and Kiss. Bischoff also paid for Dennis Rodman , Jay Leno and Karl Malone in that span too.

His main achievement/skill was convincing network people to keep him employed and their wallets open.

Nah , his main achievement was kick starting a late 1990s boom and launching an unheard of idea many thought was crazy. A live TV product each week. Which if you see documentaries on it , many thought it was basically a live PPV every week. They didn't know if it would work.

That might sound a little harsh (and maybe is), but the guy was not good at his job.

Bischoff was really....REALLY good at his job. Again a live TV product each week wasn't easy. Plus Bischoff was literally during the show...COUNTER programming Vince's taped show. That is astounding to be that HANDS ON to counter segments and more to get that advantage. Nitro being live is why we got WWF RAW live. Vince had to fight back.

It wasn't just throwing money then at people. Sure that helped but Bischoff was reading spoilers and watching , and would change up Nitro on the fly because ...he wanted to WIN.

There are so few who have actually run a wrestling company on such a large stage that he gets a pass largely because he was for doing it for years.

However, as has been covered to death, Turner wanted wrestling and funded it until, for a brief moment, it became truly profitable, and continued to do so long after. WCW wasn't going anywhere so Bischoff just got chance after chance until it hit midday and his stopped clock was finally right. Then it got to 12.01 and he was wrong again.

Ted Turner didn't own WCW by the end. WCW was losing $6 million a year before Bischoff came in. Turner told his executives then , nope not gonna sell. During Bischoff's run , a company offered a couple hundred million for WCW. By this point Turner would do a merger with Time Warner and they laughed the deal off. Because one year WCW made a huge amount of money (over $500 million) and they were like...nah. Then once things began a slow ride down....Time Warner was merging with AOL.

AOL/Time Warner was BILLIONS in debt due to this merger. They were cutting costs and selling sh-t everywhere in 2000. WCW. would cost them $60-80 million in losses. Turner was out of there and no way to save it.

In any sensible industry Bischoff wouldn't have lasted to '96 and would have been gone long before he'd run the NWO into the ground, let alone WCW itself.

In any sensible industry , Bischoff would have been called into the office in 1998 when he programmed Goldberg to beat Hogan at Georgia Dome on Nitro. Because your basically forgetting ...1996-1998 was the big MONEY years for WCW. By saying this you cost WCW millions in profits so....no.

That people still believe his self-masturbatory ego stroking in the face of almost unlimited evidence to the contrary is baffling to me.

I think people believe it because the facts are there. 1996-1998 was the company's biggest and best money making years. He turned around a product that traditionally lost money. He made mistakes as posted but he also did very well.

The live products we see today with WWE RAW , Smackdown and AEW Dynamite and Collision....well we need to thank Eric Bischoff. Because he made a live weekly product work and laid that ground work. Love or hate him...

[Android 17]

I don't believe it was luck though. Bischoff had copied a Japan storyline he saw and decided to use it for this. Sure having ex-WWF guys worked and once he got Hogan in it , yep it went into over drive. But almost every element of the NWO was an "invasion" from up north and it clicked with audiences. WCW had never been seen on WWF's level and was considered a small southern promotion. The NWO took WCW to make it a true national product like Bischoff wanted.




The biker rally situation was foolish on the fact they didn't pay a gate. The idea was to build a PPV after Bash at the Beach (1995) that took place on a beach setting with people attending. That was likely his idea to do it where a large group of people were at.

Bischoff's folly was he should have charged attendance at the Sturgis Rally (which is attended by thousands) for Hog/Road Wild. But Bischoff was going off what the PPV buys would be and as crazy as it sounds...Hog/Road Wild did very well there...

220,000 PPV Buys - 1996
240,000 PPV Buys - 1997
365,000 PPV Buys - 1998
235,000 PPV Buys - 1999

In fact that last Road Wild PPV was the last big time drawing WCW PPV. In fact no other PPV would do as well. That is the thing ....Bischoff wasn't wrong holding a PPV at Sturgis Biker rally. He was wrong in not charging attendance. His PPV was different which helped.

https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/...s-ppv-buyrate/

Also WWF was also after Kiss as well in this time period. They were wanting to do a deal as well. So it wasn't just Bischoff out there trying to throw money at various people. WWF paid for Motley Crue to perform and Bischoff did the same with a country music star (name escapes me) and Kiss. Bischoff also paid for Dennis Rodman , Jay Leno and Karl Malone in that span too.


Nah , his main achievement was kick starting a late 1990s boom and launching an unheard of idea many thought was crazy. A live TV product each week. Which if you see documentaries on it , many thought it was basically a live PPV every week. They didn't know if it would work.


Bischoff was really....REALLY good at his job. Again a live TV product each week wasn't easy. Plus Bischoff was literally during the show...COUNTER programming Vince's taped show. That is astounding to be that HANDS ON to counter segments and more to get that advantage. Nitro being live is why we got WWF RAW live. Vince had to fight back.

It wasn't just throwing money then at people. Sure that helped but Bischoff was reading spoilers and watching , and would change up Nitro on the fly because ...he wanted to WIN.



Ted Turner didn't own WCW by the end. WCW was losing $6 million a year before Bischoff came in. Turner told his executives then , nope not gonna sell. During Bischoff's run , a company offered a couple hundred million for WCW. By this point Turner would do a merger with Time Warner and they laughed the deal off. Because one year WCW made a huge amount of money (over $500 million) and they were like...nah. Then once things began a slow ride down....Time Warner was merging with AOL.

AOL/Time Warner was BILLIONS in debt due to this merger. They were cutting costs and selling sh-t everywhere in 2000. WCW. would cost them $60-80 million in losses. Turner was out of there and no way to save it.



In any sensible industry , Bischoff would have been called into the office in 1998 when he programmed Goldberg to beat Hogan at Georgia Dome on Nitro. Because your basically forgetting ...1996-1998 was the big MONEY years for WCW. By saying this you cost WCW millions in profits so....no.


I think people believe it because the facts are there. 1996-1998 was the company's biggest and best money making years. He turned around a product that traditionally lost money. He made mistakes as posted but he also did very well.

The live products we see today with WWE RAW , Smackdown and AEW Dynamite and Collision....well we need to thank Eric Bischoff. Because he made a live weekly product work and laid that ground work. Love or hate him...

But yet and still, if Bisch was such a genius, why were his only moments of glory 1996 until mid 1998?

How is that he gave away main event level PPV matches like Hogan vs Goldberg on Nitro? At the same time too, why couldn't he dig deep and get WCW back to its little prominence it had back when the nWo was fresh? He couldn't even keep and secure the new deal to buy WCW or get the TV time because Network execs probably knew he was a one trick pony and thought Vince was a better investment.

Eric is a great salesman, he has the gift of gab, but bro he is definitely not some pro wrestling mastermind. And I like the guy.

For all the business acumen that he lacks, Paul E. is still leaps and bounds ahead of him, creatively.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But yet and still, if Bisch was such a genius, why were his only moments of glory 1996 until mid 1998?

Ego is a big reason. As Jericho claims Bischoff became so assure of himself and how dominant WCW was...he didn't have to change ANYTHING. Guys who needed to be elevated up , Bischoff wouldn't do. Raven , Jericho , Benoit , Scott Steiner....etc. Bischoff didn't want to change anything and by the time WWF rebounded..it threw him off.

Long range plans went out window as we know. Because Bischoff had lost his mind in beating Vince. He went from beating WWF to try and put the company out of business. Which no one wanted since guys thrive on going to different places.

Bischoff's fall from grace was a lot due to ego.

How is that he gave away main event level PPV matches like Hogan vs Goldberg on Nitro? At the same time too, why couldn't he dig deep and get WCW back to its little prominence it had back when the nWo was fresh? He couldn't even keep and secure the new deal to buy WCW or get the TV time because Network execs probably knew he was a one trick pony and thought Vince was a better investment.

No ...Bischoff and Fusiant Media had the deal done. It was all done as we know. The company was gonna be bought for $50+ million and he'd be running it. Everything was done...then Jamie Kellnor came in and cancelled the shows because he didn't want them on TV anymore.

But that was his decision and once the executives were like....you don't wanna buy the company now ? WHY ? Bischoff told them , well you essentially made WCW worthless without the time slots and Fusiant wouldn't do the deal for that reason.

Eric is a great salesman, he has the gift of gab, but bro he is definitely not some pro wrestling mastermind. And I like the guy.

For all the business acumen that he lacks, Paul E. is still leaps and bounds ahead of him, creatively.

Bischoff is great at business , not so creatively. Sullivan booked the company at its top era with committee involved. Bischoff just signed and approved on ideas basically.

Paul is the better creative guy and we know this. We have seen what he can do. But as far as business man....nah. Not in what we saw during ECW. lol

[krazijoe]

Say what you want about Eric, but he was pretty hamstrung by the contracts of Hall, Nash and Hogan. Especially Hogan since Hogan had control over his storylines. Not saying that is why WCW folded but it played a big part of it.
I would have loved to see Sting as the 3rd member, but Hogan didn't want someone else to get the spotlight.
I think Eric and Jim both get the psyche of the wrestling fan, but can't deal with the talent of today.

[Noodle]

Say what you want about Eric, but he was pretty hamstrung by the contracts of Hall, Nash and Hogan. Especially Hogan since Hogan had control over his storylines. Not saying that is why WCW folded but it played a big part of it.

He's the one that made those deals. Eric only had himself to blame for that.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hogan didn’t want to go heel then. He had to have Bischoff , Hall , Nash and Sullivan talk him into the heel turn then. And even then Sullivan had to stay a night with him because they feared Hogan’s agent would talk him out of it all.

There was a resolution made to appease Hulk. If things went south with NWO , he’d get to turn face within 3 months.

If Hogan still refused to go heel , they were gonna go with Lex Luger as the 3rd man then.

[krazijoe]

Hogan didn’t want to go heel then. He had to have Bischoff , Hall , Nash and Sullivan talk him into the heel turn then. And even then Sullivan had to stay a night with him because they feared Hogan’s agent would talk him out of it all.

There was a resolution made to appease Hulk. If things went south with NWO , he’d get to turn face within 3 months.

If Hogan still refused to go heel , they were gonna go with Lex Luger as the 3rd man then.

I thought Sting was the back up and when Hogan heard that he changed his mind to become the 3rd member. If it were Lugar it would have never worked...Day 2 and it would have been over...

[Android 17]

Yeah I thought Sting was the next choice after Hogan, but then Nash was like Hogan stopped them and said "That gravy train isnt leaving without me brother!"

And the rest as they say was history.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Luger was considered because he had left for WWF earlier and had links to the company then. Sting was WCWs franchise guy and had never left. So they had Luger in place had Hulk decided not to do the turn.

[BeastieRunner]

I really don't think the nWo would've worked with anyone BUT Hogan, Hall, and Nash.

[Immortal Weapon]

Hogan didn’t want to go heel then. He had to have Bischoff , Hall , Nash and Sullivan talk him into the heel turn then. And even then Sullivan had to stay a night with him because they feared Hogan’s agent would talk him out of it all.

There was a resolution made to appease Hulk. If things went south with NWO , he’d get to turn face within 3 months.

If Hogan still refused to go heel , they were gonna go with Lex Luger as the 3rd man then.

My understanding of the story is that Sting was the backup plan. I never heard anything about Luger

[SUPERECWFAN1]

My understanding of the story is that Sting was the backup plan. I never heard anything about Luger

Luger had been in WWF months earlier , was playing a quasi heel type role and only friends with Sting then. I know a number of people have said it would have been him as 3rd man had Hulk decided against it.