Should Norman Osborn Have Stayed Dead?

[Chris0013]

Yes. And let someone else be a new Green Goblin.

[kcekada]

Yes, his death and Gwen's had a parallel that shouldn't have been negated. There was no good reason to bring back since any number of characters could have played his role in Dark Avengers saga.

[Huntsman Spider]

Yes, his death and Gwen's had a parallel that shouldn't have been negated. There was no good reason to bring back since any number of characters could have played his role in Dark Avengers saga.

If it had to be someone from Spider-Man's corner of the MU still, that got elevated to "Big Bad of the entire Marvel Universe" during Dark Reign, who would you think of it being, if I may ask?

[Toonstrack]

Hes spideys archnemisis

He stays dead, the entire history of both characters is different

Rami trilogy looks completely different. Itd be like joker being perma'd after killing joke.

So no, he shouldn't have stayed dead. Hes integral to spider man's mythos snd theres been plenty of great stories with the character even recently(gold goblin mini was great)

[ImOctavius]

Itd be like joker being perma'd after killing joke.

But Joker didn't die in The Killing Joke.

[Daibhidh]

If it had to be someone from Spider-Man's corner of the MU still, that got elevated to "Big Bad of the entire Marvel Universe" during Dark Reign, who would you think of it being, if I may ask?

If we limit ourselves to villains Peter fought in Ditko's run, there's a villain from Amazing Spider-man 5 that might work: Doctor Damn, Doctor Dumb, something like that.

(more serious)
Otto would have worked. He might even have worked better: the personal relationship between Norman and Peter was just too strong for Norman to really become a big bad for the entire Marvel Universe. Fraction had a story with Tony and Otto just before Superior that showed that Otto can function without the relationship to Peter.

Doctor Doom and old-Loki managed to be big bads for the entire Marvel Universe while still being connected to the Fantastic Four and Thor. But the FF and Thor are big enough in universe that being their nemeses is a sufficiently big pull on their own. For Peter's nemesis to be a credible antagonist for the whole MU, Peter has to be written as someone sufficiently experienced that his nemesis is a credible threat to everybody.

[comictimes]

Yes. And let someone else be a new Green Goblin.

There was already a new Goblin, but it wasn't green.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think Norman could have worked as an MU villain. It's just that they went about it the wrong way and tried to reinvent him.

Norman sees the Goblin just as much part of his identity as Peter sees Spider-Man (especially Post-Resurrection), so the way to parallel that IMO is to have Goblin by the dark trickster of the Marvel Universe who quips and messes with heroes the way Spider-Man quips and messes with villains. That always seemed like a more natural progression and integration of Norman into the wider MU instead of the way Bendis tried to reinvent him.

The best examples of Norman/Goblin as an MU villain are in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, Osborn: Evil Incarcerated, and Ellis' Thunderbolts. All of them arguably trump Dark Reign.

[Agent Z]

Hes spideys archnemisis

He stays dead, the entire history of both characters is different

Rami trilogy looks completely different. Itd be like joker being perma'd after killing joke.

So no, he shouldn't have stayed dead. Hes integral to spider man's mythos snd theres been plenty of great stories with the character even recently(gold goblin mini was great)

The Raimi trilogy killed Norman off in the first film and he stayed dead for the rest of the trilogy. Characters being dead in one medium doesn't mean anything for other mediums.

[Chris0013]

There was already a new Goblin, but it wasn't green.

My point is there was Norman, Harry, Bart Hamilton and Phil Urich. So even if they kill off Norman they can make someone else the Green Goblin but with different motivations.

[Lunala]

I don't understand why a character would benefit from being restricted to a single role at all times. Norman Osborn's had objectives other than opposing Peter Parker. Even if Norman had no prior motivation, I'd object to keeping the characters stagnant on principle. Writers of quality fiction can make villains into something more than playthings to be removed from a dollhouse and returned.

Outside of ASM, Peter continues to be friends with other heroes and makes appearances there as well. Given Peter's affection and their reciprocation, why wouldn't Osborn pose a serious threat to the community at large? Norman has a tendency to see the people he cares about—Harry and Peter, for example—as extensions of himself, so if Peter crosses over, Norman ought to be able to follow suit.

Even using the obsessive-hater angle, it makes sense for other heroes to be targeted. The Green Goblin desires not only the death of Spider-Man but also for Peter to be petrified, isolated from the world, and driven to the point where he is unable to bear the pressure. Pete's professional (hero and civilian) and personal lives would naturally be the targets of Gobby's attempts to subdue Spider-Man and demonstrate his control over him. He's a billionaire CEO. The division of labor is their bread and butter. Given that several of Spidey's amazing friends are beyond Norman's skill set, teamwork would, at times, become a necessity. In the Green Goblin's early appearances, he collaborated with others; he can still do that now. Osborn needs to take advantage of every trick in his bag to subordinate Peter and keep him isolated in order to continue the abuse and prevent Spider-Man from receiving help from his friends and family. Peter's so much easier to manipulate without them.

In Dark Reign, the characters reside in the same universe, and Tony Stark was using mind control over criminals to organize an army in other Civil War tie-in books. Iron Man won't be creeping around Peter's neighborhood when Norman's wealth and abilities make him a compelling thrall. Norman wanted to get revenge on Peter for surviving his assassination attempt. It would have been ooc if the control-crazed Green Goblin hadn't sought to exact revenge on Tony Stark for treating him like Stark's frothing lapdog, manipulating his body to orchestrate a staged assassination, and tampering with his memory afterwards. Norman's assumption of control over Stark's affairs was canonically a jab at Tony for his loss of agency. The event had weak writing and worthless duds. Peter should've been more involved, for starters. Still, the bulk of Norman's actions made complete sense for his character the moment mind-controlling nanites entered the chat.

Even so, I hate what the Civil War did to the heroes.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think Norman could have worked as an MU villain. It's just that they went about it the wrong way and tried to reinvent him.

Norman sees the Goblin just as much part of his identity as Peter sees Spider-Man (especially Resurrection), so the way to parallel that IMO is to have Goblin by the dark trickster of the Marvel Universe who quips and messes with heroes the way Spider-Man quips and messes with villains. That always seemed like a more natural progression and integration of Norman into the wider MU instead of the way Bendis tried to reinvent him.

The best examples of Norman/Goblin as an MU villain are in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, Osborn: Evil Incarcerated, and Ellis' Thunderbolts. All of them arguably trump Dark Reign.

Funny enough, Evil Incarcerated was almost right after Dark Reign ended, if I recall right, following Osborn in prison and continuing his machinations and scheming even there.

I don't understand why a character would benefit from being restricted to a single role at all times. Norman Osborn's had objectives other than opposing Peter Parker. Even if Norman had no prior motivation, I'd object to keeping the characters stagnant on principle. Writers of quality fiction can make villains into something more than playthings to be removed from a dollhouse and returned.

Outside of ASM, Peter continues to be friends with other heroes and makes appearances there as well. Given Peter's affection and their reciprocation, why wouldn't Osborn pose a serious threat to the community at large? Norman has a tendency to see the people he cares about—Harry and Peter, for example—as extensions of himself, so if Peter crosses over, Norman ought to be able to follow suit.

Even using the obsessive-hater angle, it makes sense for other heroes to be targeted. The Green Goblin desires not only the death of Spider-Man but also for Peter to be petrified, isolated from the world, and driven to the point where he is unable to bear the pressure. Pete's professional (hero and civilian) and personal lives would naturally be the targets of Gobby's attempts to subdue Spider-Man and demonstrate his control over him. He's a billionaire CEO. The division of labor is their bread and butter. Given that several of Spidey's amazing friends are beyond Norman's skill set, teamwork would, at times, become a necessity. In the Green Goblin's early appearances, he collaborated with others; he can still do that now. Osborn needs to take advantage of every trick in his bag to subordinate Peter and keep him isolated in order to continue the abuse and prevent Spider-Man from receiving help from his friends and family. Peter's so much easier to manipulate without them.

In Dark Reign, the characters reside in the same universe, and Tony Stark was using mind control over criminals to organize an army in other Civil War tie-in books. Iron Man won't be creeping around Peter's neighborhood when Norman's wealth and abilities make him a compelling thrall. Norman wanted to get revenge on Peter for surviving his assassination attempt. It would have been ooc if the control-crazed Green Goblin hadn't sought to exact revenge on Tony Stark for treating him like Stark's frothing lapdog, manipulating his body to orchestrate a staged assassination, and tampering with his memory afterwards. Norman's assumption of control over Stark's affairs was canonically a jab at Tony for his loss of agency. The event had weak writing and worthless duds. Peter should've been more involved, for starters. Still, the bulk of Norman's actions made complete sense for his character the moment mind-controlling nanites entered the chat.

Even so, I hate what the Civil War did to the heroes.

Good points, especially about Civil War and Dark Reign. Will definitely concur that with Captain America "dead" and Iron Man on the run thanks to Osborn, Peter should have stepped up in a big way during Dark Reign.

[FFJamie94]

I say yes... however I honestly think if you just retconned it so that the Norman we've been following has been a group of clones, which were created by the Jackal so he could take his revenge on the Goblin as well for killing Gwen, then not only would you have a pretty clever retcon, but you also have your cake in Norman being dead, and eating it, allowing the Green Goblin to die and come back but different.
You would also make the Jackal a legit big time villain and lead the way for doing stuff with him...

[Huntsman Spider]

I say yes... however I honestly think if you just retconned it so that the Norman we've been following has been a group of clones, which were created by the Jackal so he could take his revenge on the Goblin as well for killing Gwen, then not only would you have a pretty clever retcon, but you also have your cake in Norman being dead, and eating it, allowing the Green Goblin to die and come back but different.
You would also make the Jackal a legit big time villain and lead the way for doing stuff with him...

That would definitely be something.

[ImOctavius]

I say yes... however I honestly think if you just retconned it so that the Norman we've been following has been a group of clones, which were created by the Jackal so he could take his revenge on the Goblin as well for killing Gwen, then not only would you have a pretty clever retcon, but you also have your cake in Norman being dead, and eating it, allowing the Green Goblin to die and come back but different.
You would also make the Jackal a legit big time villain and lead the way for doing stuff with him...

Not every Spider-Man story needs to have clones involved.