X-force 48. Welcome back hank

[Walking Wake]

Reading about something and actually experiencing are two different things. We saw a similar scenario with the teen O5, whom read up on their older selve's history (Jean even got a TP mind dump). He's not the same Hank bc he never lived any of that stuff. Functionally, he's essentially an AR clone. Everything that happened over the last 40 yers was signficant to who he was. Even if we wanted to disregard the Krakoa era, like Mungho mentioned, X-Factor and 90s X-men were pretty big. He cant reference any of that bc he didnt live it. Its problematic and I dont like it

And then there's the issue of the fact that this is a clone, an incomplete one at that. I dont know how they are going to deal with that. I havent read all of X-Factor, but he wasnt created by hte Five via the Resurrection Protocols. I believe this was standard science cloning we've seen in the MU. Are they gonna ignore that or acknowledge that yes he is in fact a clone, not the real Hank but they are going to accept him as such? A similar thing was done with Illyana who was designated Magik 2.0 bc she wasnt the real original after she was brought back but ultimately they chose to accept her anyway

If the status quo was pre-Krakoa I never would have wanted this, or would have only been okay with erasing Morrison onwards.

But now? As a Beast fan it's simply unbearable to be part of online or even in-store discussions about X-Men which is supposed to be part of the enjoyment of reading the books. I haven't got that enjoyment in years. All fans will differ from what their reset-era "limit" would be, but now with what Percy has done to accelerate and codify Hank's actions? Hell, if you only gave me the two options of continuing on this path for even one more year versus, let's say, resetting back to Kirby/Lee era? Screw it, I'd rather that (though I'm happy with Avengers/Defenders era if that's what they're going with).

Because at the end of the day after however long a potential "redemption" or at least start of a rehabilitation of the character happens hopefully, I want to be able to just say in a conversation "well that's not this Beast, this one didn't do all that laundry list of stuff people have rattled off for years now." If one asks why do you still like what's essentially a completely different character, my answer would be that a clean(er) slate would allow writers to FINALLY write the KIND of Beast/Hank McCoy that I actually do like.

Percy could still end this with the good Beast dying so I don't know why people are getting their hopes up.

For however much MCU/X-Men 97 synergy matters, I sincerely hope it's not a fake out. But I'm still very much on guard as it's clear how much Percy enjoys twisting every knife in a Beast fan.

[Mungho]

Percy could still end this with the good Beast dying so I don't know why people are getting their hopes up.

Marvel has fanned the flames of hate too much for evil-Beast to not get killed off. Also, It's because of what Percy said. He said that 'the very last pages of X-Force will mirror the very first pages'. Logan saved Hank from a mutant boar in the first pages of his X-Force. There's a theory a friend of mine came up with that evil-Beast is the 'boar'. Remember how for awhile he had those strange boar-tusks in his mouth? A lot of people thought that was odd, because he'd never had them before. The theory is evil-Beast (the boar) is going to try to kill good-Beast and then Logan kills evil-Beast once and for all, fulfilling what Percy said. Good-Beast is then left to wonder if he's the real one or not.

[Souther]

I think it's a moot point to get too technical about this and have a very scholarly debate, because:

a) Generally speaking, "the ends justify the means", at least when it comes to Marvel/DC Comics. Both for good and bad reasons, we've already seen that with other characters and storylines. Even if we disagree about the method, what matters is the final result.

b) Even if Percy might potentially end up killing either both Beasts or, as some people might fear, just the good one...I tend to think they're still leaving the door open for one final mass resurrection and/or mass reset before the end of the Krakoa era. That may well just have to happen in another book. That said, I'd like to think Percy won't want to conclude his run on such a negative note.

c) There's likely going to be a small time skip at the end of the Krakoa saga. Or a larger one, but I think it won't be too huge. If needed, editorial can use that gap to justify anything and everything.

[M@Bowers2014]

Percy could still end this with the good Beast dying so I don't know why people are getting their hopes up.

Oh I'm convinced that is exactly what is going to happen.

[Triniking1234]

Reading about something and actually experiencing are two different things. We saw a similar scenario with the teen O5, whom read up on their older selve's history (Jean even got a TP mind dump). He's not the same Hank bc he never lived any of that stuff. Functionally, he's essentially an AR clone. Everything that happened over the last 40 yers was signficant to who he was. Even if we wanted to disregard the Krakoa era, like Mungho mentioned, X-Factor and 90s X-men were pretty big. He cant reference any of that bc he didnt live it. Its problematic and I dont like it

And then there's the issue of the fact that this is a clone, an incomplete one at that. I dont know how they are going to deal with that. I havent read all of X-Factor, but he wasnt created by hte Five via the Resurrection Protocols. I believe this was standard science cloning we've seen in the MU. Are they gonna ignore that or acknowledge that yes he is in fact a clone, not the real Hank but they are going to accept him as such? A similar thing was done with Illyana who was designated Magik 2.0 bc she wasnt the real original after she was brought back but ultimately they chose to accept her anyway

Honestly, if this sticks it'll depend on how the following creative team feels about it. Doctor Octopus is in a magically replica of his younger body, Kraven's a clone who was raised as the son of the original and Black Widow's a clone too so Marvel will just ignore it once Krakoa ends.

[Havok83]

Honestly, if this sticks it'll depend on how the following creative team feels about it. Doctor Octopus is in a magically replica of his younger body, Kraven's a clone who was raised as the son of the original and Black Widow's a clone too so Marvel will just ignore it once Krakoa ends.

But none of their memories/historie were erased though right? They are essentially the same character in a new body? I think whats different here is how much of his past just isnt a part of this new character to the point that he is a differnet one than whom we've been reading

[Souther]

But none of their memories/historie were erased though right? They are essentially the same character in a new body? I think whats different here is how much of his past just isnt a part of this new character to the point that he is a differnet one than whom we've been reading

Honestly, Beast already has accumulated too much bad baggage over the years even if you ignored everything that happened during his recent X-Force stint and kept the rest.

Regardless of whatever turns out to be the definitive solution in this particular case, I believe they do need to figuratively throw out some of the worst events in his background.

[Triniking1234]

But none of their memories/historie were erased though right? They are essentially the same character in a new body? I think whats different here is how much of his past just isnt a part of this new character to the point that he is a differnet one than whom we've been reading

Well with the Kraven clone he was raised OG Kraven's son so he didn't have memories of joining the Sinister Six and Last Hunt so it should be a different character. Percy used that character in his AXE X-Force story but I don't think the clone stuff is brought up and he acts a lot like OG Kraven so yeah I'm confident Marvel will just ignore it.

[Steroid]

I think it's a moot point to get too technical about this and have a very scholarly debate, because:

a) Generally speaking, "the ends justify the means", at least when it comes to Marvel/DC Comics. Both for good and bad reasons, we've already seen that with other characters and storylines. Even if we disagree about the method, what matters is the final result.

This is really the truth of the situation. To get to the final result it was never going to be clean or make any sense especially when the writer is average at best. In the end like it or not they are essentially giving us what we wanted and it's pointless to complain about how they went about it. It's the classic "Be careful of what you wish for because you might just get it" scenario.

[Mungho]

Honestly, Beast already has accumulated too much bad baggage over the years even if you ignored everything that happened during his recent X-Force stint and kept the rest.

Regardless of whatever turns out to be the definitive solution in this particular case, I believe they do need to figuratively throw out some of the worst events in his background.

You're right. Beast fans have been complaining for years about his direction. Now we have a 'clean' one without the awful writing that has plagued him. I would've preferred the version brought back to be right before he became cat-Beast because I believe that was the start of his decline (though gorilla-Beast was when it greatly accelerated).

I think it'll work out. 'Course, this doesn't keep future writers from making him do evil things, but with Brevoort becoming editor and Percy having burned through decades worth of evil Beast stories during his tenure, the future for Hank looks surprisingly bright.

[lefthanded]

Here's some panels from the issue:

Uh, I know you're X-Force and all, but why are you trying to cut an ally with your claws, Laura? Sure, self-defense against a disoriented Beast is understandable, but you should be aiming to pacify, not injure him.

But, that means this is just a clone with some of the old one's memories. Thus it's not the real Hank. This is the very scenario I was hoping they wouldn't do.

But then, Black Tom did say they were investigating just WHY the original went bad. Maybe there's another explanation coming up?

Eh, whether a character is the original or 'real' ultimately doesn't matter to readers and writers.

Tony Stark has been through this several times.

First, after doing heinous acts during Civil War and then losing his position during Dark Reign, he ends up erasing his brain and memory (to prevent Osborn from getting access to his knowledge), and then rebooting entirely with pre-Civil War backup (because, of course it is pre his bad deeds). Readers and writers now really don't reference that this isn't the 'real Tony Stark'.

Second, Tony Stark became an AI after dying during Civil War II, and then uploading that consciousness into his body. Readers and Writers now don't really care about this not being the real Tony who is 'married' to Emma Frost, he is just Tony.

Weird things happen in comics, and once 5 years go by, most people just accept the characters at face value.

[Mungho]

Eh, whether a character is the original or 'real' ultimately doesn't matter to readers and writers.

Tony Stark has been through this several times.

First, after doing heinous acts during Civil War and then losing his position during Dark Reign, he ends up erasing his brain and memory (to prevent Osborn from getting access to his knowledge), and then rebooting entirely with pre-Civil War backup (because, of course it is pre his bad deeds). Readers and writers now really don't reference that this isn't the 'real Tony Stark'.

Second, Tony Stark became an AI after dying during Civil War II, and then uploading that consciousness into his body. Readers and Writers now don't really care about this not being the real Tony who is 'married' to Emma Frost, he is just Tony.

Weird things happen in comics, and once 5 years go by, most people just accept the characters at face value.

My brother mentioned that Tony had been through something like this in the 90's when he was replaced by teen Tony. Then Franklin Richards used his powers and made everything ok again, somehow.

I've just been out of comics so long when I returned a year-and-a-half-ago that I've forgotten how these things work. The extreme hate and vitriol I read towards Beast when I first came back, and the fact Marvel seemed to be leaning into that hate, made me think him being evil was permanent, and I felt I had to campaign to change the editor's minds.

[LordUltimus]

Characters are just going to ignore it and pretend this is always been the real Hank anyways. Remember how everyone acted like Old Man Logan was the same character as regular Logan when he died? Or how right now they're pretending Talon isn't the original Laura?

[ARkadelphia]

I mean current Hank has had like 3 different designs at this point

I know I was just trying to be funny. I failed.

[Havok83]

Characters are just going to ignore it and pretend this is always been the real Hank anyways. Remember how everyone acted like Old Man Logan was the same character as regular Logan when he died? Or how right now they're pretending Talon isn't the original Laura?

They didnt though. OML was acknowledged as a different Logan. He may have been written similarly but he being a Logan from a different era was part of his characterization in the books I read of him (Extraordinary, All New Wolverine, Gold, Phoenix Resurrection) and that was never ignored. I also dont think anyone is pretending that Laura isnt the original Laura. To be fair to that situation, she doesnt interact with anyone besides Synch and a bunch of newer characters (Kamala and Rasputin). They've really gone out of their way to ignore most of her older relationships