Morgoth vs Cyttorak

[MichaelC]

Morgoth vs Cyttorak

[Sharpandpointies]

Morgoth, using the time period where he had that name, was reduced from when he was Melkor. He gets absolutely wrecked by Cyttorak, who treats Heralds and Classic Strange like garbage.

[choptop]

Morgoth, using the time period where he had that name, was reduced from when he was Melkor. He gets absolutely wrecked by Cyttorak, who treats Heralds and Classic Strange like garbage.

Hold up Melkor and Morgoth are the same person?

[Sharpandpointies]

Hold up Melkor and Morgoth are the same person?

They are, indeed, the same person.

However, Morgoth is the name he took on after he stole the Silmarils (actually, the name slapped on him by Fëanor, but Morgoth is such a weenie he probably said "Ooo, 'the Black Enemy', sounds cool, yeah, I'll stick with that!").

Even by that point, his power had diminished a tad; not a whole lot, but a bit. And over the years that followed, Morgoth squandered more and more of his power making stuff, peeing all over the world to mark it as his own (if we go by Tolkien's later writings), and fueling his ego. He gets weaker as time goes on, not stronger. In the end, by Tolkien's own admission, Sauron with Ring was more powerful than Morgoth would have been during the War of Wrath (which possibly explains why he hid under his bed and had to be dragged out rather than choosing to fight...oh, wait, no, that's because he was a gigantic bullying coward at heart). Silmarillion doesn't say that directly, but Tolkien does in his letters, and even if we don't take Tolkien's word for it, by feats Morgoth wasn't exactly great shucks compared to his earlier self.

So when people come in and start talking 'Morgoth' for a thread, my assumption is that they're talking about that later version of the character. Not Melkor, the greatest of the Valar, the guy who was powerfull enough that he could fight against all of the Valar (minus Tulkas) pretty much alone and at least do okay in struggles that reshaped the world and made it shudder, etc.

.....

Granted, I wouldn't give THAT version good odds against Cyttorak either, but at least he could put up a better fight.

[choptop]

They are, indeed, the same person.

However, Morgoth is the name he took on after he stole the Silmarils (actually, the name slapped on him by Fëanor, but Morgoth is such a weenie he probably said "Ooo, 'the Black Enemy', sounds cool, yeah, I'll stick with that!").

Even by that point, his power had diminished a tad; not a whole lot, but a bit. And over the years that followed, Morgoth squandered more and more of his power making stuff, peeing all over the world to mark it as his own (if we go by Tolkien's later writings), and fueling his ego. He gets weaker as time goes on, not stronger. In the end, by Tolkien's own admission, Sauron with Ring was more powerful than Morgoth would have been during the War of Wrath (which possibly explains why he hid under his bed and had to be dragged out rather than choosing to fight...oh, wait, no, that's because he was a gigantic bullying coward at heart). Silmarillion doesn't say that directly, but Tolkien does in his letters, and even if we don't take Tolkien's word for it, by feats Morgoth wasn't exactly great shucks compared to his earlier self.

So when people come in and start talking 'Morgoth' for a thread, my assumption is that they're talking about that later version of the character. Not Melkor, the greatest of the Valar, the guy who was powerfull enough that he could fight against all of the Valar (minus Tulkas) pretty much alone and at least do okay in struggles that reshaped the world and made it shudder, etc.

.....

Granted, I wouldn't give THAT version good odds against Cyttorak either, but at least he could put up a better fight.

Do you know anything about Tevildo prince of cats?

[Sharpandpointies]

Do you know anything about Tevildo prince of cats?

When Tolkien started writing the story of Beren and Lúthien, he set up Tevildo as one of the major adversaries along the journey. Tevildo makes Beren his slave, forces him to do menial tasks, that kind of thing; Beren is eventually freed by Lúthien and Huan.

Tevildo and his cats didn't really make it into the final draft; they were later replaced by Sauron and his werewolves, who capture Beren, Finrod and their stalwart companions, leading to some much more serious and dark consequences.

Edit: you can read more about Tevildo in the book Beren and Lúthien, Christopher Tolkien's excellent collection of his father's writing process on The Lay of Leithian.

[master of read]

They are, indeed, the same person.

However, Morgoth is the name he took on after he stole the Silmarils (actually, the name slapped on him by Fëanor, but Morgoth is such a weenie he probably said "Ooo, 'the Black Enemy', sounds cool, yeah, I'll stick with that!").

Even by that point, his power had diminished a tad; not a whole lot, but a bit. And over the years that followed, Morgoth squandered more and more of his power making stuff, peeing all over the world to mark it as his own (if we go by Tolkien's later writings), and fueling his ego. He gets weaker as time goes on, not stronger. In the end, by Tolkien's own admission, Sauron with Ring was more powerful than Morgoth would have been during the War of Wrath (which possibly explains why he hid under his bed and had to be dragged out rather than choosing to fight...oh, wait, no, that's because he was a gigantic bullying coward at heart). Silmarillion doesn't say that directly, but Tolkien does in his letters, and even if we don't take Tolkien's word for it, by feats Morgoth wasn't exactly great shucks compared to his earlier self.

So when people come in and start talking 'Morgoth' for a thread, my assumption is that they're talking about that later version of the character. Not Melkor, the greatest of the Valar, the guy who was powerfull enough that he could fight against all of the Valar (minus Tulkas) pretty much alone and at least do okay in struggles that reshaped the world and made it shudder, etc.

.....

Granted, I wouldn't give THAT version good odds against Cyttorak either, but at least he could put up a better fight.

didn't he get called out by that one elf king who just walked up to his crib and called him a bitch and then fought a duel with him where he got hurt that never really healed? my tolkein is a bit muddy right now.

[Sharpandpointies]

didn't he get called out by that one elf king who just walked up to his crib and called him a bitch and then fought a duel with him where he got hurt that never really healed? my tolkein is a bit muddy right now.

Pretty much.

Fingolfin - who, in fairness, was pretty high up there, see below - hammered on the doors of Angband and issued challenge. Morgoth didn't want to look weak in front of his generals, so out he went, reluctantly, to fight. Now, it was a challenge so Morgoth went to fight, rather than...I don't know, raining lava down on Fingolfin, which he totally could have done (has feats for such). Again, didn't want to look bad in front of his people, I guess.

Edit: and you are correct; he did, effectively, call him a bitch. The earlier - more poetic - version of the story Tolkien wrote holds this gem:

'Come, open wide,
dark king, your ghastly brazen doors!
Come forth, whom earth and heaven abhors!
Come forth, O monstrous craven lord,
and fight with thine own hand and sword,
thou wielder of hosts of banded thralls,
thou tyrant leaguered with strong walls,
thou foe of Gods and elvish race!
I wait thee here. Come! Show thy face!'

Fingolfin ends up wounding him seven times while Morgoth swings Grond around, making pits in the earth. Finally Fingolfin gets tired of leaping about like a sparrow and stumbles in a pit, and Morgoth shield-crushes him to the ground a few times. Then steps on his neck, 'like the weight of a fallen mountain' or something. Dying, Fingolfin still manages to savage his foot with Ringil, his sword, leaving Morgoth forever lame (granted, he was lame before).

It's worth noting that Angband's gates are big enough that dragons - plural - issue forth from them, as do gigantic armies, etc. They're the gates of a fortress that's made of three mountains. They're pretty big.

Fingolfin banged on the gates with his fist, and they boomed so loudly that everyone in the fortress (again, mountain-sized) heard it. Even in the throne room, which is hidden in the basement (again, Morgoth big coward).

Fingolfin was pretty crazy strong.

[Sharpandpointies]

To further illustrate Fingolfin's overall level of power, we had a thread (maybe I made it, I don't remember but it sounds like one of the few threads I've made) before the board wipe where a bunch of First Agers showed up to help get the Ring to Mt. Doom.

This led to Pendaran coming up with the hilarious idea of 'Fingolfin straps Frodo to his back and murders his way to Mt. Doom, and nothing can stop him', and you know, he was right.

Pen also came up with the idea that Fingolfin sits around complaining about how things have changed, and again, nobody can stop him.

Paraphrased -

[Fingolfin] A ring? In my day we fought over three Jewels that held the holy light of all creation within them!

[Sauron] Standing right here. I'm quite powerful, you know.

[Fingolfin] I'm talking.

[Sauron] ...do continue.

[big_adventure]

To further illustrate Fingolfin's overall level of power, we had a thread (maybe I made it, I don't remember but it sounds like one of the few threads I've made) before the board wipe where a bunch of First Agers showed up to help get the Ring to Mt. Doom.

This led to Pendaran coming up with the hilarious idea of 'Fingolfin straps Frodo to his back and murders his way to Mt. Doom, and nothing can stop him', and you know, he was right.

Pen also came up with the idea that Fingolfin sits around complaining about how things have changed, and again, nobody can stop him.

Paraphrased -

[Fingolfin] A ring? In my day we fought over three Jewels that held the holy light of all creation within them!

[Sauron] Standing right here. I'm quite powerful, you know.

[Fingolfin] I'm talking.

[Sauron] ...do continue.

Fingolfin would be great with slap down comedy.