Fall of the House of X #2 - Review/Spoilers

[danielsan52]

I'm enjoying this series but I have zero interest in Rise.

[Icefanatic]

There was nothing in that post I haven't said a hundred times and you damn well know it, you're just counting on the fact that I wouldn't have bothered saving something I deleted because this isn't the first time I've decided it wasn't worth it to get into an argument and deleted something not because I don't stand by it but because I was trying to avoid getting sucked in. But of course, with it deleted you can insinuate all you want that I said something truly damning that would tarnish my character and I was trying to hide that lol. Stellar tactic. Really fun. Well, people will believe what they want to believe but you and I will always know that it was nothing more than me calling you out for already decrying the X-Men as irredeemable villains for years, as soon as they ditched respectability politics, rather than because of anything in this most recent issue in specific. Which again, is a point I've made many times before and THAT'S why I said this wasn't worth it, but why would we expect the guy who tried comparing the X-Men to 'what if the victims of Nazis had rounded them all up in concentration camps, would you think that was okay' to have any shame whatsoever when it comes to trying to make a point or win an internet argument.

NOW I'm done. I'll even leave this one up, so you can pat yourself on the back for making a liar out of me for not sticking to being done with an argument. Congrats, you beat me! LOL. Enjoy your winnings or whatever.

It was four paragraphs. The first two were lengthy, the last two short. I don't even know what was in the last two because I hit quote after reading the first two. I would have gladly taken a screenshot had I known I needed it. You spent the first paragraph falsely claiming things like I 'wanted the mutants to suffer', 'to be oppressed' and 'to be killed'. After making a bunch of false claims like that about me in the first paragraph, in the second you tried to justify the X-Men acting that way because of all that they have suffered, then referred to the people they were killing as a bunch of 'NPC's' that no one should care about them killing.

When Magneto killed everyone aboard the Leningrad back in the day, were you like, 'who cares about him killing a bunch of Commie NPC's?' Seriously?

And no, I have never seen you post like that before. You usually try to have reasoned, fact-based discussions, as do I. It's why even when I disagree with you I usually enjoy the debate/discussion. I wasn't even talking with you prior to that post so I have no idea what the hell motivated that kind of a response to me, I certainly didn't get that kind of a response from anyone else. As for the bit about the Nazi's, I wasn't trying to win an internet argument, I was making an analogy that good people don't lower themselves like that. We don't rape rapists. It is what they deserve, but most hold themselves to a higher standard than to become a rapist themselves. The X-Men shouldn't be like Orchis, even if that is what Orchis or any other foe deserves.

I don't really use ignore lists but if that is how you are going to react to something I post, please do add me to yours.

[JB]

Can we discuss how Polaris got the power up to move a huge dead head through solar system?
Or how Broo recovered control over his species?
And how the ideia of use the Brood to attack an Orchis base is not even original (quoted on Inferno white pages) and the villains should have counter-mesaures for that now?
Or that there's a huge risk of a Brood member or egg has fallen on Earth with Bloom base and it will be a problem soon?

Broo regained control of the Brood when Jean defeated Nightmare, who had been using Broo's dreams to make some of the Brood go rogue.

The first Brood attack attempt was on the bigger Orchis Forge/Mother Mold station which is also protected by defense platforms and watchtowers. The Bloom is smaller, didn't have Nimrod onboard and the Brood had the protection of Polaris. I don't think they have to worry about a stray Brood or egg because Broo can control them.

[RAWRlrus]

No literally… I genuinely feel bad because his art has never looked this incomplete so the rush behind the scenes has to be crazy. I’m begging them to get a second artist that can split issues with him. If it’s someone with a similar enough style (like any of the Dead X-Men issue 1 artists) then it won’t even be jarring.

Something had to have happened behind the scenes around when Fall of X started. After the gala issue we had 3 issues of X-Men with a different artist each time before Noto took over, but Noto wasn't listed in the solicits. Then there's the December issue with Cassara before Noto comes back. Casarra's back I think for the March issue and maybe even beyond. Around the same time that Noto takes over Werneck gets pulled off the final few issues of Immortal which IIRC he had been the only artist for previously.

[davetvs]

Marvel may have Werneck chained to a chair so he can't jump out the window after reading Duggan's scripts.

[Steroid]

This series so far has been a bit of a letdown in both writing and art. Also someone please tell Duggan that we got the memo and are aware if anyone says or does anything to Cyclops they are in big trouble if Jean finds out.

[Kingdom X]

It was four paragraphs. The first two were lengthy, the last two short. I don't even know what was in the last two because I hit quote after reading the first two. I would have gladly taken a screenshot had I known I needed it. You spent the first paragraph falsely claiming things like I 'wanted the mutants to suffer', 'to be oppressed' and 'to be killed'. After making a bunch of false claims like that about me in the first paragraph, in the second you tried to justify the X-Men acting that way because of all that they have suffered, then referred to the people they were killing as a bunch of 'NPC's' that no one should care about them killing.

When Magneto killed everyone aboard the Leningrad back in the day, were you like, 'who cares about him killing a bunch of Commie NPC's?' Seriously?

And no, I have never seen you post like that before. You usually try to have reasoned, fact-based discussions, as do I. It's why even when I disagree with you I usually enjoy the debate/discussion. I wasn't even talking with you prior to that post so I have no idea what the hell motivated that kind of a response to me, I certainly didn't get that kind of a response from anyone else. As for the bit about the Nazi's, I wasn't trying to win an internet argument, I was making an analogy that good people don't lower themselves like that. We don't rape rapists. It is what they deserve, but most hold themselves to a higher standard than to become a rapist themselves. The X-Men shouldn't be like Orchis, even if that is what Orchis or any other foe deserves.

I don't really use ignore lists but if that is how you are going to react to something I post, please do add me to yours.

I’ve really been trying to ignore these posts, but I have to say something. You claim to use fact based-discussions but on 3 separate occasions I’ve seen you use logical fallacies and slipper slope logic to make your point. Comparing the X-Men to rapists, domestic abusers, and those that would put others in concentration camps is such a wild jump and frankly it’s gross to use real weird tragedies and traumas so loosely and without care in a conversation about… comic book characters.

Don’t get me wrong… I don’t enjoy Duggan’s use of hyper violence for the sake of it (which I’ve pointed out multiple times in this thread), but TO BE CLEAR the X-Men as a whole (which is far more than the 4 characters in the space station battle) are not anywhere near what Orchis has done. They haven’t plotted the extinction of humanity, they haven’t put innocent people into camps, they haven’t experimented on their enemies, and they haven’t attempted mass deportations.

[The Twilight Mexican]

Huh? Writing off the whole human race based on the actions of a few is exactly the same as demonising mutants because of the actions of any one of the mutant villains who have terrorised the world.

It's not a few. It's certainly the vast majority. It's every human government, including democratically elected ones in NA and Europe. Humans with a handful of exceptions, mostly heroes, are far more irredeemable than any Mutant, except for the Sabertooths, Shaws, and Selenes of the world.

Pretty much does sound like what the baseline humans highlighted in the books tend to say about the mutants...

In any case, if their "democratically elected" governments are anything like those in the real world, the options were probably all unreasonable extremists.

... but all of that barely meets the threshold of decency ...

Surely this is deliberate hyperbole? Orchis isn't populated with the typical "It's just a paycheck" goons of A.I.M. or even usually Hydra. The point was made and emphasized from day one that even the members of Orchis drawn from within those organizations were done so in secret and ideologically dedicated to Orchis's genocidal goal.

Allowing any Orchis operative the chance to survive goes well beyond basic decency into extreme -- perhaps even negligent -- charity. It was even a plot point last year with Shadowkat's arc that flunkies the X-Men spared/rescued got right back at it. They are a genuine and unapologetic existential threat, so Polaris or Colossus going in with the intention of killing them really only makes sense.

That being said, I agree that Kurt of all people should not be depicted gleefully killing them. Doing so in resigned regret, sure. Accepting that it is necessary is one thing, but that grin was disturbing. I hope there was some miscommunication between the writer and artist there -- perhaps the artist misinterpreting a cue from the dialogue.

As to the question of whether the X-Men can still be considered heroes, that's really been the question of the whole era. It's the reason Scott and Jean reformed the team when it had been dissolved into everyone just being a citizen -- and in many cases: political operative -- of Krakoa. They're well aware that there's a conceptual conflict between being a superhero and being a nationalist.

And with that also being said, there comes a point where being a superhero can cross into being an accomplice to a villain if you won't finish them off. Some bad guys really just do need to go.

[TheMaker1610]

Surely this is deliberate hyperbole? Orchis isn't populated with the typical "It's just a paycheck" goons of A.I.M. or even usually Hydra. The point was made and emphasized from day one that even the members of Orchis drawn from within those organizations were done so in secret and ideologically dedicated to Orchis's genocidal goal.

Allowing any Orchis operative the chance to survive goes well beyond basic decency into extreme -- perhaps even negligent -- charity. It was even a plot point last year with Shadowkat's arc that flunkies the X-Men spared/rescued got right back at it. They are a genuine and unapologetic existential threat, so Polaris or Colossus going in with the intention of killing them really only makes sense.

This, exactly this !
The X-men saved those Orchis goons when they had no need to do so (way back in 2021 X-men #1) but still did anyways because that's what they do.. Save everyone, even those who hate and fear them.
For the goons, that should've been an "are they really the demons we made them out to be?" moment. Instead, what did they do? They kept working with Orchis, perpetrating who knows how many other crimes to tarnish the mutant's reputation, AND actively participated in the Gala genocide..
The Shadowkat moment was extremely satisfying because of that. They had no redeeming qualities, and had to go (with as much pain as they inflicted)

ETA: typos/formatting

[charliehustle415]

[lefthanded]

I really hope there is more upcoming payoff to Duggan's Brood story arc than just "Lorna unleashes the Brood to kill some Orchis goons on a space station."

Cyclops v Jean rift about genocide? In the past, as Cyclops x Jean are all lovey dovey and don't reference it at all.
Jean was right (to not genocide the Brood because they may come in useful)? Not really because Duggan explicitly states that Lorna could have destroyed the station with just her powers (sure there would have been more deaths, but I would argue that the X-men are already killing people here, and getting torn up by Brood is arguably a more cruel way to die).
Forge and Monet brought back Knowhere so it could serve as a home base for Brood? Again, as above, Lorna could have controlled any random asteroids and had it attack the space station.

I want to hope that there is more storytelling purpose for that controversial arc than to just have cool splash pages of Lorna unleashing the brood. As someone pointed out, Nimrod already easily counters the Brood, so I don't know how useful they will be going forward.

Side note: If Angelica was on the station and Lorna didn't stop for coffee ... Lorna could have killed her before running into Nightcrawler.

[salarta]

Side note: If Angelica was on the station and Lorna didn't stop for coffee ... Lorna could have killed her before running into Nightcrawler.

“Coffee breaks: they save lives!”

[Havok83]

I really hope there is more upcoming payoff to Duggan's Brood story arc than just "Lorna unleashes the Brood to kill some Orchis goons on a space station."

Cyclops v Jean rift about genocide? In the past, as Cyclops x Jean are all lovey dovey and don't reference it at all.
Jean was right (to not genocide the Brood because they may come in useful)? Not really because Duggan explicitly states that Lorna could have destroyed the station with just her powers (sure there would have been more deaths, but I would argue that the X-men are already killing people here, and getting torn up by Brood is arguably a more cruel way to die).
Forge and Monet brought back Knowhere so it could serve as a home base for Brood? Again, as above, Lorna could have controlled any random asteroids and had it attack the space station.

I want to hope that there is more storytelling purpose for that controversial arc than to just have cool splash pages of Lorna unleashing the brood. As someone pointed out, Nimrod already easily counters the Brood, so I don't know how useful they will be going forward.

Side note: If Angelica was on the station and Lorna didn't stop for coffee ... Lorna could have killed her before running into Nightcrawler.

Cyclops and Jean have not interacted with each other in like 7 months. Im not sure what opportunity there would have been for them to be all lovey dovey and reference it considering she is dead and he's been detained

[Starfish]

I'm ready to skip ahead to where the Phoenix Force deus exes the X-Men's problems so we can hopefully get to more interesting stories again.

[Saithor]

I've seen people claim based off these issues that Duggan would probably make a good Punisher writer. I have to disagree. The Punisher is at his best (Which isn't that great but still), when Frank knows he's ultimately a broken man who no one should emulate and has damned himself to hell, metaphorical or literal. Between these issues and X-men Green I contend Duggan just really enjoys black and white eye for an eye morality. It's why he's so well-suited to Deadpool, where committing random acts of ultraviolence with one-liners and snark is such a common occurrence. Trying to transfer it to other characters doesn't work anywhere near as well.