How will the success of Ultimate Spider-Man (2024) impact the franchise?

[Spider-Tiger]

Classic Jameson strikes me as a mainstream media liberal type. You know, the kind on CNN or New York Times that is pro-status quo but doesn't realize it, is pro-sensationalism but doesn't realize it (or sometimes he realizes it but rationalizes it).

The way he talks about Spider-Man, it has the same energy as the way 60s mainstream media talked about high school and college activists: "They're a menace, delinquents, make the world a worse place, cause chaos, think they're better than you," etc.

Hickman's Jameson seems like an actual anti-Establishment guy who would work for an independent media like The Intercept. Actually, that's kinda what him and Uncle Ben are doing, lol.

I'd say Ben is the more idealistic and anti-establishment one. Hickman's Jonah seems principled but more status quo and needs some convincing to go along with Ben's idea. Especially in that "How about we promise not to lie" scene. But Fisk taking control, I'm sure, would also piss off 616 JJJ.

[Huntsman Spider]

Classic Jameson strikes me as a mainstream media liberal type. You know, the kind on CNN or New York Times that is pro-status quo but doesn't realize it, is pro-sensationalism but doesn't realize it (or sometimes he realizes it but rationalizes it).

The way he talks about Spider-Man, it has the same energy as the way 60s mainstream media talked about high school and college activists: "They're a menace, delinquents, make the world a worse place, cause chaos, think they're better than you," etc.

Hickman's Jameson seems like an actual anti-Establishment guy who would work for an independent media like The Intercept. Actually, that's kinda what him and Uncle Ben are doing, lol.

I'd say Ben is the more idealistic and anti-establishment one. Hickman's Jonah seems principled but more status quo and needs some convincing to go along with Ben's idea. Especially in that "How about we promise not to lie" scene. But Fisk taking control, I'm sure, would also piss off 616 JJJ.

Interesting points. As for Ben being the more idealistic and antiestablishment between him and Jonah, that follows from his characterization in the original Ultimate Spider-Man, in which (Aunt) May recounted to Peter him saying that he "never met a man with money who didn't step on someone else to get it." Given how the original Ultimate Spider-Man was also in some ways a treatise on how corrupt men with too much money and power and too little sense of morals, ethics, or responsibility to others were ultimately to blame for so much of the damage done to the world, to say nothing of the lives of the Spider-Men (Peter Parker and Miles Morales) and many of those in their orbit, Hickman following in and expanding on that with his new Ultimate Spider-Man would make sense.

[Toonstrack]

I guess part of it is also that Rich isn't an A-lister so that offers more freedom and less forced creative control to fit him into a box or cater to editorial's whims.

Just look at what the Guardians that he used to be associated with got turned into.

Yea. And look how many books he's currently in. Zero.

Theres writing a good story, then there's writing a good story that is also better for the characters longevity. Sometimes a good story isn't good for a character who has a large space in something bigger than him and thats where the conflict lies.

20 years on from omd has the character suffered narratively? Maybe. But has he suffered commercially or popularity wise? Absolutely not.

Vasy majority of popular media featuring the character doesn't have him as a family man and most people in the wider audience(which is far, far larger than any comics fanvase can claim to be ) knows him as the unlucky twenty something.

So the nova comparison isn't really apt. It's focusing on the narrative strength vs the very present snd releavtn discussion of character image.

A better comparison is this. Do you ever see sonic the hedgehog settling down and getting married in main continuity like a game(not counting the penders stuff lmao) Do you see mario actually marrying peach and raising a son?

It sounds silly but spider man is that level of character now. His image is bigger than any story featuring him. His story doesn't have an ending. Thats something that inevitably complicates the whole "narrative writing" aspect.

[Garlador]

Yea. And look how many books he's currently in. Zero.

He’s been over in X-Men and confirmed to be involved in whatever Jean is doing.

Honestly, I’d argue the main reason he isn’t in any ongoings is the lack of an MCU appearance, something Feige says they’re looking into.

So put a pin on this one and ask me again how he’s doing in the books after that reaches fruition.

A better comparison is this. Do you ever see sonic the hedgehog settling down and getting married in main continuity like a game(not counting the penders stuff lmao) Do you see mario actually marrying peach and raising a son?

It sounds silly but spider man is that level of character now. His image is bigger than any story featuring him. His story doesn't have an ending. Thats something that inevitably complicates the whole "narrative writing" aspect.

Neither of these examples really have any real continuity. You’re comparing apples-to-oranges.

And in the versions that do have a story-focus…Well… yeah, you gotta throw that out for the point to work. He got married and had kids.
AB8BD527-6D21-42C1-94E8-8AE47AF29E98.jpg

[Spider-Tiger]

Yea. And look how many books he's currently in. Zero.

Theres writing a good story, then there's writing a good story that is also better for the characters longevity. Sometimes a good story isn't good for a character who has a large space in something bigger than him and thats where the conflict lies.

20 years on from omd has the character suffered narratively? Maybe. But has he suffered commercially or popularity wise? Absolutely not.

Vasy majority of popular media featuring the character doesn't have him as a family man and most people in the wider audience(which is far, far larger than any comics fanvase can claim to be ) knows him as the unlucky twenty something.

So the nova comparison isn't really apt. It's focusing on the narrative strength vs the very present snd releavtn discussion of character image.

A better comparison is this. Do you ever see sonic the hedgehog settling down and getting married in main continuity like a game(not counting the penders stuff lmao) Do you see mario actually marrying peach and raising a son?

It sounds silly but spider man is that level of character now. His image is bigger than any story featuring him. His story doesn't have an ending. Thats something that inevitably complicates the whole "narrative writing" aspect.

Why does this particular version being married impede the character's longevity? Do you think he'd be any less successful if he were married? Why do comics which are sold to a small niche audience have to be limited to whatever the "general" perception may be (which is already an incredibly amorphous and immeasurable idea)? Is there any evidence that keeping characters synergistic with general public perception grows the comic book reading audience or contributes to increased sales? If this Peter has already aged to his late 20s and developed to the degree of having a long-running relationship (and former marriage), wouldn't it be logical to present this particular version as being married AND also have alternatives with a much younger version of the character? Essentially having products for multiple audiences and tastes?

[Coop]

A better comparison is this. Do you ever see sonic the hedgehog settling down and getting married in main continuity like a game(not counting the penders stuff lmao) Do you see mario actually marrying peach and raising a son?

It sounds silly but spider man is that level of character now. His image is bigger than any story featuring him. His story doesn't have an ending. Thats something that inevitably complicates the whole "narrative writing" aspect.

I would say an even better comparison would be the character of Superman, a gigantic multimedia brand. Who many did indeed see getting married in the main continuity. Twice, in fact. And so we have had a married Superman, twice.

It's fair to have a preference. But I have yet to see a compelling case made for why it objectively is proper business sense that Spider-Man cannot be married.

Subjectively, I have many years of comics that in my opinion far outstrip the stuff done since brand new day where Spider-Man thrived flourished and indeed made me a lifelong fan while he was married.

And, also subjectively, I now I have over 15 years of comics that have made me less interested in Spider-Man, less interested in buying Spider-Man merchandise, less interested in Marvel Comics in general where he's not married and it hasn't made the stories any more compelling or interesting.

That's not to say the marriage is a silver bullet that would restore my interest. You still need comics of a high quality worth the very high asking price. I'm not going to just buy any old comic just because he's married. That's why I skipped renew your vows, because I was not a fan of the writer who launched it and so it was not on my radar

[Frontier]

Neither of these examples really have any real continuity. You’re comparing apples-to-oranges.

And in the versions that do have a story-focus…Well… yeah, you gotta throw that out for the point to work. He got married and had kids.
AB8BD527-6D21-42C1-94E8-8AE47AF29E98.jpg

Just pointing out there that this was a What If timeline and there is no way SEGA would have ever let this happen to Prime Sonic .

[Garlador]

Just pointing out there that this was a What If timeline and there is no way SEGA would have ever let this happen to Prime Sonic .

I'm aware. I have the old Archie comics.

But Coop offered a far better counter here. Is Superman not just as iconic? And yet he's a husband and father in the comics, allowed to take steps forward and add new responsibilities and challenges to his life in the main book alongside a family he's embraced and added to. And he's hardly alone.

Heck, even Walt Disney emphasized that Mickey Mouse is married to Minnie. MICKEY MOUSE.

[Huntsman Spider]

I would say an even better comparison would be the character of Superman, a gigantic multimedia brand. Who many did indeed see getting married in the main continuity. Twice, in fact. And so we have had a married Superman, twice.

It's fair to have a preference. But I have yet to see a compelling case made for why it objectively is proper business sense that Spider-Man cannot be married.

Subjectively, I have many years of comics that in my opinion far outstrip the stuff done since brand new day where Spider-Man thrived flourished and indeed made me a lifelong fan while he was married.

And, also subjectively, I now I have over 15 years of comics that have made me less interested in Spider-Man, less interested in buying Spider-Man merchandise, less interested in Marvel Comics in general where he's not married and it hasn't made the stories any more compelling or interesting.

That's not to say the marriage is a silver bullet that would restore my interest. You still need comics of a high quality worth the very high asking price. I'm not going to just buy any old comic just because he's married. That's why I skipped renew your vows, because I was not a fan of the writer who launched it and so it was not on my radar

And some of the same people saying Superman shouldn't have married Lois Lane in the first place have been bemoaning that DC editorial didn't stick to its guns and keep him and Lois apart, unlike Spider-Man's situation over here in Marvel. In light of how much critical and fan acclaim the Superman comics have had since the version of him and Lois that were married were restored to DCU continuity proper, barring a few hiccups here and there, and how even the more recent comics that put the secret identity genie back in the proverbial bottle kept them together, with Lex snarking about it in a way that sounded very much like a metatextual jab at Marvel's dogged insistence on keeping Peter and Mary Jane apart . . . yeah, I think there's no question that developing the superhero protagonist in a way that enables them to grow as a character and a hero, instead of keeping them stuck in a stagnant status quo for the sake of "marketability," is the much better way to go. Hell, Batman is getting a lot of ultimately similar criticism, at least in spirit and tone, for the character and the book falling back into their own stagnant and self-destructive cycles that don't serve and haven't served the story or the character of Batman well at all, so it's not necessarily a problem limited to Marvel's leadership or stewardship, more the kind of failures that tend to ensue when "preserving a brand" becomes more important in some people's minds than "developing a character."

[Toonstrack]

He’s been over in X-Men and confirmed to be involved in whatever Jean is doing.

Honestly, I’d argue the main reason he isn’t in any ongoings is the lack of an MCU appearance, something Feige says they’re looking into.

So put a pin on this one and ask me again how he’s doing in the books after that reaches fruition.



Neither of these examples really have any real continuity. You’re comparing apples-to-oranges.

And in the versions that do have a story-focus…Well… yeah, you gotta throw that out for the point to work. He got married and had kids.
AB8BD527-6D21-42C1-94E8-8AE47AF29E98.jpg

Im throwing out the ponders stuff mostly because it isn't remembered very fondly. Yes he got married but thats not the example I'd use for something that SHOULD happen to the character given how convoluted it got. I mean there are universes Peter is married. Usm 2024 isn't even the first or second.

And sonic absolutely does have continuity, in his primary media format(beign video games) there is a consistent timeline of events that has more or less been around for the last 25 years beginning with sonic adventure. It's not quite narrativelt intense but you're watching the same sonic in the latest game who was in that game. Itd intended to be the same guy.

[Frontier]

Im throwing out the ponders stuff mostly because it isn't remembered very fondly. Yes he got married but thats not the example I'd use for something that SHOULD happen to the character given how convoluted it got. I mean there are universes Peter is married. Usm 2024 isn't even the first or second.

And sonic absolutely does have continuity, in his primary media format(beign video games) there is a consistent timeline of events that has more or less been around for the last 25 years beginning with sonic adventure. It's not quite narrativelt intense but you're watching the same sonic in the latest game who was in that game. Itd intended to be the same guy.

For the record the art Garlador posted is from Ian Flynn's work (even if it's building off and doing better with Ken Penders concepts).

I remember when Sonic Adventure had flashbacks to Sonic CD!

[Toonstrack]

Why does this particular version being married impede the character's longevity? Do you think he'd be any less successful if he were married? Why do comics which are sold to a small niche audience have to be limited to whatever the "general" perception may be (which is already an incredibly amorphous and immeasurable idea)? Is there any evidence that keeping characters synergistic with general public perception grows the comic book reading audience or contributes to increased sales? If this Peter has already aged to his late 20s and developed to the degree of having a long-running relationship (and former marriage), wouldn't it be logical to present this particular version as being married AND also have alternatives with a much younger version of the character? Essentially having products for multiple audiences and tastes?

I've said this before but I think marvel wants anyone who watches or consumes most spider man media to be able to open any spidey comic on the shelves and be completely caught up. Thats an image thing.where splitting the narrative too far from the accepted image can be a hindrence. For example, a kid playing sonic heroes goes to the comics and finds out that sonic has a wife and kids and is friends with a whole swatch of characters that never showed up in the games would be jarring to say the least.

Beyond that I'm kinda here or there on spidey marriage, I dont know why so many treat that as the end all be all. He csn still be with mj and not married, he probably will get back with mj eventually and then they'll do it again. Id it a spinning wheel? Yeah it is, and they want it to be because this characters still going to have a monthly comic book 80 years from now when we are all dead and gone. They're gonna have to figure out if they reboot the character and send one off or keep doing this until then, but closure isn't really a feasible thing for spider man 616.

If they marry him to mj and it sticks long enough, that becomes a lot of people's default image. Then he HAS to be married to mj in all media. They dont want that either I dont think.

Its a complex problem that only the most long running characters ever see. It's why Bruce Wayne will always keep beating around the bush with Selina, because once the audience comes to expect batman as a married man, thats it. Theres no unmarried batman anymore. At least in theory.

[Toonstrack]

For the record the art Garlador posted is from Ian Flynn's work (even if it's building off and doing better with Ken Penders concepts).

I remember when Sonic Adventure had flashbacks to Sonic CD!

Yes honestly I rarely paid close attention to the game continuity as a kid until shadow showed up in heroes after dying in adventure 2. After that it became unclear to me what games were connected and it was a while before I realized they pretty much all were. Heck, they've now integrated even the current comics into game continuity and you'll hear characters mention comic only characters in the games.

[Toonstrack]

I would say an even better comparison would be the character of Superman, a gigantic multimedia brand. Who many did indeed see getting married in the main continuity. Twice, in fact. And so we have had a married Superman, twice.

It's fair to have a preference. But I have yet to see a compelling case made for why it objectively is proper business sense that Spider-Man cannot be married.

Subjectively, I have many years of comics that in my opinion far outstrip the stuff done since brand new day where Spider-Man thrived flourished and indeed made me a lifelong fan while he was married.

And, also subjectively, I now I have over 15 years of comics that have made me less interested in Spider-Man, less interested in buying Spider-Man merchandise, less interested in Marvel Comics in general where he's not married and it hasn't made the stories any more compelling or interesting.

That's not to say the marriage is a silver bullet that would restore my interest. You still need comics of a high quality worth the very high asking price. I'm not going to just buy any old comic just because he's married. That's why I skipped renew your vows, because I was not a fan of the writer who launched it and so it was not on my radar

But what you have to realize is in the grand scheme of things that isnt significant because this character is going to exist in 50 years, and his books will still be published snd he will still be fighting green goblin and what not. The majority of people reading him THEN aren't even alive now, but marvel wants them to picture spider manthe same way i did as a kid decades ago. A young man, down on his luck and trying his best.
Compare this to say Reed Richard's who has pretty much always been attached to sue from day 1. Thats his image. Middle aged married man, hes held that spot the whole time. If they did a Reed Richard's that is single and going through spideys phase no one would find t recognizable in the larger audience.

Again, there's no easy solution. Dc is going to face this problem too; do we keep the Robins all kids or do we age them up? When you age them up batman has to be aged up. Do we add another new Robin? Do we retire Bruce? I dont have the answer , but I can tell you this isn't a problem nova is facing any time soon. Most marvel characters aren't.

[Spider-Tiger]

I've said this before but I think marvel wants anyone who watches or consumes most spider man media to be able to open any spidey comic on the shelves and be completely caught up. Thats an image thing.where splitting the narrative too far from the accepted image can be a hindrence. For example, a kid playing sonic heroes goes to the comics and finds out that sonic has a wife and kids and is friends with a whole swatch of characters that never showed up in the games would be jarring to say the least.

MJ is a character that appears in most Spidey media. There are multiple characters in the present run that have never appeared in other media. Regardless, you can print multiple Spider-titles (which they already do) to achieve this and attract different audiences. New readers that would be "turned off" by a marriage would also likely be turned off by a sprawling continuity. The people most interested in the marriage seem to be most interested in it because of the continuity. So it makes sense to print the marriage in a continuity dense book and keep an unmarried Spidey for a continuity-lite book.

I'm any case, there's been at least two decades of "synergizing" and maintaining status quos that hasn't really done much (if anything) to help a dwindling market. So I'm not convinced that is the winning strategy.

Beyond that I'm kinda here or there on spidey marriage, I dont know why so many treat that as the end all be all. He csn still be with mj and not married, he probably will get back with mj eventually and then they'll do it again. Id it a spinning wheel? Yeah it is, and they want it to be because this characters still going to have a monthly comic book 80 years from now when we are all dead and gone. They're gonna have to figure out if they reboot the character and send one off or keep doing this until then, but closure isn't really a feasible thing for spider man 616.

If they marry him to mj and it sticks long enough, that becomes a lot of people's default image. Then he HAS to be married to mj in all media. They dont want that either I dont think.

I don't think that's necessarily true either. Other media doesn't seem to treat 616 as gospel. Most do their own thing and draw inspiration from a variety of elements across au comics and film/television adaptations. Just as you can have teenage and married Peter Parker adaptations when the character is neither in present 616. Spidey can be a variety of things and a variety of ages across media. In an era where the multiverse is mainstream, audiences are savvy enough to appreciate different interpretations of a character.