How will the success of Ultimate Spider-Man (2024) impact the franchise?

[WebLurker]

Personally I'm tired of Spider-Verse.

IMHO, it's one of those things that's good for special occasions, not the main course.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I can't say I'm tired of Spider-Verse since Comics Spider-Verse is a lot like everything else post-OMD: too focused on high concepts with little-to-no character stuff.

I don't know what Spider-Verse in the comics looks like once you take it out of the hands of the BND writers and give it to a writer that makes it feel "normal" like how they made an alien symbiote feel normal, but if it looks anything like the two animated movies, I'm fine with it sticking around (granted not all the time, but the same is true of everything).

That said, yeah I wouldn't want any Spider-Verse stuff done in this book. Hickman's Pete is just starting out and the focus should stay on him and his world.

[Huntsman Spider]

That's exactly how I feel about it. I think the multiverse can be a fun way to bring back beloved alternate versions of characters that would otherwise fade into obscurity, but it really works when it examines the characters from other angles and shows us paths not taken. I think that's one of the reasons something like Age of Apocalypse is so loves. You see a world without Xavier but where Magneto never went bad. You get to see all the horrors Xavier and his team prevented and the impact of their existence and what would happen if Magneto founded the X-Men instead. That's a super interesting concept that shows us as readers a lot about all of the characters and who they could have been under different circumstances.

So I've always been a fan of the multiverse concept because of that creative freedom and the ability to examine the character from different angles.

I do think Spider-Verse has strayed from that concept. Lately it feels like it's basically just an attempt to create random new OCs that have no real connection to Peter or Miles but are just there to see if one catches on so corporate can market a new IP. I miss when it felt like a celebration of Spider-Man in all his various incarnations over the years with a few new ideas tossed in (like Bruce Banner as a gamma powered Spidey). Now it's just an IP farm.

I did like Weapon VIII, though.

Weapon VIII was pretty gnarly, at least in the sense that I myself had an idea that amounted to, "What if the spider that bit Peter Parker was a Weapon X/Plus project that somehow got loose?" Hell, my idea went a bit further than that, insofar as pretty much every nonmutant superhero that didn't have extraterrestrial, extradimensional, and/or supernatural origins being rooted in Weapon X/Plus experiments to create human superweapons that could be fielded against mutants.

[Frontier]

I can't say I'm tired of Spider-Verse since Comics Spider-Verse is a lot like everything else post-OMD: too focused on high concepts with little-to-no character stuff.

I don't know what Spider-Verse in the comics looks like once you take it out of the hands of the BND writers and give it to a writer that makes it feel "normal" like how they made an alien symbiote feel normal, but if it looks anything like the two animated movies, I'm fine with it sticking around (granted not all the time, but the same is true of everything).

That said, yeah I wouldn't want any Spider-Verse stuff done in this book. Hickman's Pete is just starting out and the focus should stay on him and his world.

I mean, the writing comics-wise has been an issue but I think there's only so much "look at all these people with the exact same powerset and variant of a specific theme!" that you can take outside the Miles-centric movies where a lot of it is just set dressing.

[9AlphaOmega1]

I hope they do put if off for this 6160 Peter to join the Spiderverse, and focus on world building of 6160, until there is a reason for him to introduce to the multiverse.

My hope when that happen, there will be a real interaction between the Peters, not snippets of dialogue, that it would inspire the others to take time to be Peter to their Mary Jane or partners.

[Confuzzled]

Considering One More Day only happened because Quesada thought a simple divorce was worse than a literal Faustian bargain that wiped the marriage from continuity . . .

Always found this to be bizarre. Why not at least put in the effort if you want to break a couple up? Always baffling when creatives decide to take lazy shortcuts over hard work.

See, I still think this was all deliberate on JMS's part because he was pissed he was forced to split them up. The Faustian deal plays like a morality fable just like the consequences of Peter's actions that led to Uncle Ben's death, especially once Mephisto starts taunting Peter and MJ with the image of the child who could've been/should've been.

OMD in many ways put the loss of the marriage on the same level as the loss of Uncle Ben, ensuring its shadow looms across the franchise forever. The only way to change that would be to undo the deal. JMS slyly put Quesada and his successors in a Catch 22 situation which I think they slowly began to realize around the time Renew Your Vows was suggested RYV and current Ultimate are the compromises they were forced to take without undoing OMD completely.

[Huntsman Spider]

See, I still think this was all deliberate on JMS's part because he was pissed he was forced to split them up. The Faustian deal plays like a morality fable just like the consequences of Peter's actions that led to Uncle Ben's death, especially once Mephisto starts taunting Peter and MJ with the image of the child who could've been/should've been.

OMD in many ways put the loss of the marriage on the same level as the loss of Uncle Ben, ensuring its shadow looms across the franchise forever. The only way to change that would be to undo the deal. JMS slyly put Quesada and his successors in a Catch 22 situation which I think they slowly began to realize around the time Renew Your Vows was suggested RYV and current Ultimate are the compromises they were forced to take without undoing OMD completely.

Makes a lot of sense when you put it like that, especially invoking the memory of Uncle Ben, as it was Aunt May's impending death from a gunshot by the Kingpin's sniper as a result of Peter publicly unmasking during Civil War at Tony Stark's behest, only to turn against Tony and the cause of Superhero (or Superhuman) Registration upon stumbling onto all the moral compromises Tony was making in order to win, that was the catalyst of One More Day. Peter couldn't take being even more responsible for Aunt May's death than he was for Uncle Ben's, so when nobody he reached out to was willing or able to help him save Aunt May's life . . .

[Garlador]

See, I still think this was all deliberate on JMS's part because he was pissed he was forced to split them up. The Faustian deal plays like a morality fable just like the consequences of Peter's actions that led to Uncle Ben's death, especially once Mephisto starts taunting Peter and MJ with the image of the child who could've been/should've been.

OMD in many ways put the loss of the marriage on the same level as the loss of Uncle Ben, ensuring its shadow looms across the franchise forever. The only way to change that would be to undo the deal. JMS slyly put Quesada and his successors in a Catch 22 situation which I think they slowly began to realize around the time Renew Your Vows was suggested RYV and current Ultimate are the compromises they were forced to take without undoing OMD completely.

Part of why OMD fails in this endeavor is because, unlike Uncle Ben, Peter has no memory of the event, and thus feels no accountability or responsibility for it or its outcome (nor Mary Jane, for that matter). It's a morality tale that oddly punishes the READER more than the characters in the story, because we're the ones that hurt knowing things aren't the way they're supposed to be, but Peter and MJ are simply unaware.

And, thankfully, multiple bits of media and alternate books are doing more than just existing to appease fans of the marriage in recent years; they're proving that the Spider-Man formula isn't diminished by aging up its hero and saddling him with more responsibility. Quite the opposite; it's thriving with audiences both young and old, whether it's USM or Peter B or RYV or simply revisiting the pre-OMD era to compare the writing of that era to modern runs.

I've espoused before that the 616 should have likely been the torchbearer for a maturing Peter, with AUs existing as the means to recapture dwindling, temporary youth and romantic indecision. Spidey Office has it reversed, and it's kept me and others out of the main continuity as a result. Again, I hope the success of Peter as a married, older adult makes them stop being so gosh-darn terrified of 616 being handled like that too.

[Huntsman Spider]

Part of why OMD fails in this endeavor is because, unlike Uncle Ben, Peter has no memory of the event, and thus feels no accountability or responsibility for it or its outcome (nor Mary Jane, for that matter). It's a morality tale that oddly punishes the READER more than the characters in the story, because we're the ones that hurt knowing things aren't the way they're supposed to be, but Peter and MJ are simply unaware.

And, thankfully, multiple bits of media and alternate books are doing more than just existing to appease fans of the marriage in recent years; they're proving that the Spider-Man formula isn't diminished by aging up its hero and saddling him with more responsibility. Quite the opposite; it's thriving with audiences both young and old, whether it's USM or Peter B or RYV or simply revisiting the pre-OMD era to compare the writing of that era to modern runs.

I've espoused before that the 616 should have likely been the torchbearer for a maturing Peter, with AUs existing as the means to recapture dwindling, temporary youth and romantic indecision. Spidey Office has it reversed, and it's kept me and others out of the main continuity as a result. Again, I hope the success of Peter as a married, older adult makes them stop being so gosh-darn terrified of 616 being handled like that too.

Also good and valid points.

[godisawesome]

An interesting POV to have looking at Ultimate Spider-Man and it’s relationship to the larger franchise and Marvel editorial’s POV on it:

-Editorial likely sees Ultimate Spider-Man as so “clearly” distinct and “alien” to “classic Spider-Man” that they believe it should have little to no effect on the larger pop-culture view of Spider-Man or the comic audience view of the character. To them, “Ultimate Spider-Man =/= Married Spider-Man Is A Success” because that’s an inherently weird and illogical way to look at it, because the platonic ideal of Spider-Man in their heads would never be married, and thus Ultimate Spider-Man is obviously only an AU version.

- But if course, that platonic ideal is strictly their own view of the matter - the audience as a whole has way too amorphous and flexible idea of who superheroes “really” are, and the monthly comics only inform a tiny part of that now; cartoons, movies, video games, and the longest lasting seminal stories are what forms that idea. In a lot of ways, MJ’s appearances on so many of those shows and legendary runs has long overshadowed the vast bulk of the post-OMD comic stories and new characters and love interests - of which, incidentally, it looks like Superior Spider-Man and the Spider-Verse have the greatest staying power, derived from how wildly new and different they are from the “holy status quo” that OMD was trying to enforce.

- In that respect, because the new Ultimate comics *are* selling better than AMS right now, that might mean that just hitting two or three story arcs well enough that their collected editions become “must reads” for future fans will have far more ramifications than most of the post-OMD stories when it comes to a veteran Spider-Man, much like the first run of Ultimate comics and how they impacted future views of Spider-Man as having much greater potential in high school than originally realized.

- On the other hand, the niche aspect of comics and the way collectors and long-time readers treat quality of storytelling as a minimal variable in their purchasing, it’s unlikely this editorial group will realize that, because they’ll still see ASM’s consistent sales as “proving” their point about “long term viability” in a still shrinking market.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

-Editorial likely sees Ultimate Spider-Man as so “clearly” distinct and “alien” to “classic Spider-Man” that they believe it should have little to no effect on the larger pop-culture view of Spider-Man or the comic audience view of the character. To them, “Ultimate Spider-Man =/= Married Spider-Man Is A Success” because that’s an inherently weird and illogical way to look at it, because the platonic ideal of Spider-Man in their heads would never be married, and thus Ultimate Spider-Man is obviously only an AU version.

If that's what any of them think, it would be hard to take that seriously when this is the same group of editors that put the original Ultimate on a pedestal and even pushed for the adaptations to borrow huge elements of it.

Nerd MJ, Goth Girl Gwen, Demon Goblin, Cure for Cancer Venom, Peter not able to maintain a secret identity and many more are just as "clearly distinct" and "alien" to "classic Spider-Man".

If anything, the characters in Hickman's Ultimate are (so far) more in-line with their 616 counterparts than Bendis'. MJ, Harry and Shocker are closer to 616 than Bendis' takes. Gwen looks like will be closer to her 616 counterpart too.

Jameson and Uncle Ben are maybe the only exceptions.

[godisawesome]

If that's what any of them think, it would be hard to take that seriously when this is the same group of editors that put the original Ultimate on a pedestal and even pushed for the adaptations to borrow huge elements of it.

Nerd MJ, Goth Girl Gwen, Demon Goblin, Cure for Cancer Venom, Peter not able to maintain a secret identity and many more are just as "clearly distinct" and "alien" to "classic Spider-Man".

If anything, the characters in Hickman's Ultimate are (so far) more in-line with their 616 counterparts than Bendis'. MJ, Harry and Shocker are closer to 616 than Bendis' takes. Gwen looks like will be closer to her 616 counterpart too.

Jameson and Uncle Ben are maybe the only exceptions.

Well, we’re talking about a very clear example of a blind spot and some accompanying denial on their part in general here. We all know that guys like Dan Scott are going to insist that Ultimate’s success isn’t a threat to their view of Spider-Man needing to be single... but we also can all see that it’s *going* to further the break between already established fans and editorial, and its likely to also exacerbate how new comic readers will also likely agree with the older ones, in spite of editorial’s supreme confidence that they can compete with the best writing from far more healthy market times back before OMD.

People don’t always think of *all* their subconscious influences when making art, or of how they’re shifting their memory of the past while making it. I’m sure these guys were conscious of a lot of the Bendis-influence they liked... but it seems pretty clear they haven’t really clocked how much the Raimi-version of Norman is behind the Golden Goblin idea for instance.

[Daibhidh]

If anything, the characters in Hickman's Ultimate are (so far) more in-line with their 616 counterparts than Bendis'. MJ, Harry and Shocker are closer to 616 than Bendis' takes. Gwen looks like will be closer to her 616 counterpart too.

Jameson and Uncle Ben are maybe the only exceptions.

Jameson's character in 616 has been inconsistent - I think at least since Robbie was introduced Jameson has as often as not been written as a man of principle with a blind spot when it comes to masked vigilantes, depending on the writer or even the issue.
Uncle Ben as a journalist and editor is a departure.

[Frontier]

Jameson's character in 616 has been inconsistent - I think at least since Robbie was introduced Jameson has as often as not been written as a man of principle with a blind spot when it comes to masked vigilantes, depending on the writer or even the issue.
Uncle Ben as a journalist and editor is a departure.

I think Jonah is pretty consistently principled on anything not involving Spider-Man.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Jameson's character in 616 has been inconsistent - I think at least since Robbie was introduced Jameson has as often as not been written as a man of principle with a blind spot when it comes to masked vigilantes, depending on the writer or even the issue.
Uncle Ben as a journalist and editor is a departure.

I think Jonah is pretty consistently principled on anything not involving Spider-Man.

Classic Jameson strikes me as a mainstream media liberal type. You know, the kind on CNN or New York Times that is pro-status quo but doesn't realize it, is pro-sensationalism but doesn't realize it (or sometimes he realizes it but rationalizes it).

The way he talks about Spider-Man, it has the same energy as the way 60s mainstream media talked about high school and college activists: "They're a menace, delinquents, make the world a worse place, cause chaos, think they're better than you," etc.

Hickman's Jameson seems like an actual anti-Establishment guy who would work for an independent media like The Intercept. Actually, that's kinda what him and Uncle Ben are doing, lol.