How will the success of Ultimate Spider-Man (2024) impact the franchise?

[Huntsman Spider]

I think the problem with "Peter in the chair" in 616 is that it's essentially the same argument OMD is making, just with a different perspective. If 616 Peter retires between 30-40, you're still making the OMD argument that Spider-Man is about youth and that you can't have an older Spider-Man.

Also, to an extent, both "Spider-Man is about youth" and "Peter should retire and leave the role to Miles/Mayday" are narratives that come from corporate propaganda. It's that whole "young people should drop the hippie BS and get a real job once they're 30/married" thing that conservatives started spouting after the 60s.

Of course, an adaptation or AU is welcome to have Peter retire at any age. Although, even there, I feel like Hickman's USM and the Spider-Verse films (including NWH) are all pushing against that mindset. Ultimate and the recent movies are a game changer because they play a 35+ Peter still being Spider-Man as completely normal. I could be wrong about this, but I think Older Pete as Spider-Man is going to continue to become more normalized.

Hmm, that's a very interesting angle I haven't heard on why certain voices on the editorial/executive side of Marvel might be pushing the "Spider-Man is about YOUTH" canard.

I am promarriage because what it represented of Peter progressing, not staying the status quo or telling the same story over and over again. Also for the longest time I was in the camp Spider-man has to be Peter Parker, but over the years of the same villains there is really no new stories that had any excitement. I am for Peter to retire with MJ, the reason it did not work last time or lots backlash, was saying that Peter was the clone and Ben was not the clone. I also believe 1610 Spider-Man was popular because it was young Peter, and readers looking forward of him growing up. Now the new twist is what if Peter got the powers later in life, what would that be like. 6160 Peter is later on, everyone is older meaning certain villains is either too old which me new villains or different twist to villains.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[WebLurker]

Hmm, that's a very interesting angle I haven't heard on why certain voices on the editorial/executive side of Marvel might be pushing the "Spider-Man is about YOUTH" canard.

IMHO, I always thought the canard was just an after-the-fact justification for the Powers That Be's trying to force the regression back into what they think he was back in the '70s that sounded better than "we don't like who Spider-Man is now."

[bat39]

This is what I expect the impact to be. For other parts of the franchise to realize there are new, fresh story paths to take that the audience will eat up.

USM proves that marriage, family, etc. is not the end point for Peter Parker, but instead is the start of a myriad of new story possibilities. This may hopefully carry over to the films, video games, etc - and in fact the Spider-Verse films seem to have influenced Hickman as he called USM "a bit of a Peter B Parker type situation" so maybe they will feed each other.

I'm excited that the Spider-Verse films and USM have the potential to influence an expansion of Peter's adventures and world beyond the constant "coming of age" hamster wheel. Because:

A) We have Miles, Spider-Gwen, Anya, Mayday, Annie, Bailey, etc for coming of age tales

B) "Coming of age" is a dead end for a serial franchise, anyway, because the ending defines the genre - the character comes of, y'know, age - so it should never be the definining genre for a serial property

C) Acknowledging Peter's story can grow beyond "coming of age" will allow Miles, Spider-Gwen, etc, to not be trapped on the same hamster wheel as Peter when their time comes to be of age

Totally agree!

And that's the point I've been making all along...USM may or may not see a direct adaptation, but it'll certainly help contribute to popularizing forward momentum in Peter Parker's story beyond the high school (or even college) era, especially outside of the hardcore fanbase.

Peter B. Parker was a great stride in that direction. I saw him as a kind of distillation of the 616 Peter and the Raimi/Maguire Peter (as was the Peter of Miles' own universe).

Regardless of how things stand in 616 currently, Peter and MJ ending up together is 'canon' in the broader context of the franchise (even the Webb/Garfield ASM films would have eventually brought MJ in). So it makes sense to start exploring how to build on that foundation.

IMHO, I always thought the canard was just an after-the-fact justification for the Powers That Be's trying to force the regression back into what they think he was back in the '70s that sounded better than "we don't like who Spider-Man is now."

Years ago (like, 15-20 years ago) I read an article somewhere online about how the whole idea of 'youth' being a defining attribute of Spider-Man is itself a bit of a fallacy, when you consider the fact that from the earliest stories, Peter is someone who was prematurely forced to 'grow up' - because he's the 'man of the house' and the primary breadwinner of the family, and also because of the responsibility of being Spider-Man. Also, the high school era lasted for all of 28 issues, and the college era then stretched on for another decade or so. For the vast majority of comic-book history, Peter has been a full-fledged adult. There have been some great adaptations of high school Peter since then, but I don't see why that has to be the default mode for the franchise.

[Garlador]

Totally agree!

And that's the point I've been making all along...USM may or may not see a direct adaptation, but it'll certainly help contribute to popularizing forward momentum in Peter Parker's story beyond the high school (or even college) era, especially outside of the hardcore fanbase.

Peter B. Parker was a great stride in that direction. I saw him as a kind of distillation of the 616 Peter and the Raimi/Maguire Peter (as was the Peter of Miles' own universe).

Regardless of how things stand in 616 currently, Peter and MJ ending up together is 'canon' in the broader context of the franchise (even the Webb/Garfield ASM films would have eventually brought MJ in). So it makes sense to start exploring how to build on that foundation.



Years ago (like, 15-20 years ago) I read an article somewhere online about how the whole idea of 'youth' being a defining attribute of Spider-Man is itself a bit of a fallacy, when you consider the fact that from the earliest stories, Peter is someone who was prematurely forced to 'grow up' - because he's the 'man of the house' and the primary breadwinner of the family, and also because of the responsibility of being Spider-Man. Also, the high school era lasted for all of 28 issues, and the college era then stretched on for another decade or so. For the vast majority of comic-book history, Peter has been a full-fledged adult. There have been some great adaptations of high school Peter since then, but I don't see why that has to be the default mode for the franchise.

"I certainly hope their marriage will remain a happy one and, at some time in the future, when the editors feel that the series needs some sort of boost or shot in the arm, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Parker offspring enter the picture." - Stan Lee, 2007

In many ways, I see Ultimate Spider-Man - and its current corresponding success - as more of an authentic fulfillment of Stan's vision for Spider-Man than the 616 comic has been in years.

[Darthfury78]

"I certainly hope their marriage will remain a happy one and, at some time in the future, when the editors feel that the series needs some sort of boost or shot in the arm, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Parker offspring enter the picture." - Stan Lee, 2007

In many ways, I see Ultimate Spider-Man - and its current corresponding success - as more of an authentic fulfillment of Stan's vision for Spider-Man than the 616 comic has been in years.

Would had been interesting to see a alternate Peter Parker married to Betty Brant for the Ultimate Spider-Man series. In fact, would be nice to see a alternate version of Peter Parker whose cast and characters are different from the Parker-616, like Greer Nelson(The Cat), Captain Britain(Betsy Braddock) and The Black Widow as his crimefighting allies...

[Huntsman Spider]

IMHO, I always thought the canard was just an after-the-fact justification for the Powers That Be's trying to force the regression back into what they think he was back in the '70s that sounded better than "we don't like who Spider-Man is now."

That would make sense, too.

Totally agree!

And that's the point I've been making all along...USM may or may not see a direct adaptation, but it'll certainly help contribute to popularizing forward momentum in Peter Parker's story beyond the high school (or even college) era, especially outside of the hardcore fanbase.

Peter B. Parker was a great stride in that direction. I saw him as a kind of distillation of the 616 Peter and the Raimi/Maguire Peter (as was the Peter of Miles' own universe).

Regardless of how things stand in 616 currently, Peter and MJ ending up together is 'canon' in the broader context of the franchise (even the Webb/Garfield ASM films would have eventually brought MJ in). So it makes sense to start exploring how to build on that foundation.



Years ago (like, 15-20 years ago) I read an article somewhere online about how the whole idea of 'youth' being a defining attribute of Spider-Man is itself a bit of a fallacy, when you consider the fact that from the earliest stories, Peter is someone who was prematurely forced to 'grow up' - because he's the 'man of the house' and the primary breadwinner of the family, and also because of the responsibility of being Spider-Man. Also, the high school era lasted for all of 28 issues, and the college era then stretched on for another decade or so. For the vast majority of comic-book history, Peter has been a full-fledged adult. There have been some great adaptations of high school Peter since then, but I don't see why that has to be the default mode for the franchise.

This. All of this. I'd even go so far as to that say we didn't really see high school-aged/focused adaptations of Spider-Man/Peter Parker until the 2000s with the original Ultimate Spider-Man comics, as (almost) everything that adapted him before then placed him as a college student in either his late teens or early twenties, the average age range for someone to attend college, with his high school years addressed only in flashbacks to his origin story and his motivations for crimefighting. The most seminal (and arguably most complete) adaptation of the web-slinger before then was the 90s animated series, which charted a lot of Peter's growth and development as a hero and a person, along with his relationships with his supporting cast and rogues' gallery, while having him as a college student for its entire duration and, again, only addressing his high school years as part of his beginnings in an extended flashback in the third season that had him explain to a little girl who admired him how and why he became Spider-Man. Not to mention, if you think about it, most of the really iconic supporting cast that we know and love today from Spider-Man --- Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson, Harry Osborn, Robbie Robertson, even Felicia Hardy/Black Cat --- didn't even show up until he started going to college or later, so that in and of itself puts the lie to the idea that Peter's best years as Spider-Man were exclusively when he was still in high school.

[WebLurker]

Years ago (like, 15-20 years ago) I read an article somewhere online about how the whole idea of 'youth' being a defining attribute of Spider-Man is itself a bit of a fallacy, when you consider the fact that from the earliest stories, Peter is someone who was prematurely forced to 'grow up' - because he's the 'man of the house' and the primary breadwinner of the family, and also because of the responsibility of being Spider-Man. Also, the high school era lasted for all of 28 issues, and the college era then stretched on for another decade or so. For the vast majority of comic-book history, Peter has been a full-fledged adult. There have been some great adaptations of high school Peter since then, but I don't see why that has to be the default mode for the franchise.

Yeah, the argument was DOA. Even high school stuff -- like the original USM comics, which did work with the idea that Peter was operating in an adult world and didn't always get the cynicism -- kept power and responsibility as the core theme.

That would make sense, too.

I can't prove that, obviously, but, given how none of the arguments for the canard really hold up or are just assertions with nothing to back them up, one has to wonder.

[Edit: mixed up the "youth" thing with the OMD retcon there. I can see the case being made that a young Spider-Man making his way in the world can be a legitimate premise, but it's always about growing up and the Brevoort manifesto's insistence that it's the main theme of the franchise is just plain wrong period.]

[bat39]

"I certainly hope their marriage will remain a happy one and, at some time in the future, when the editors feel that the series needs some sort of boost or shot in the arm, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Parker offspring enter the picture." - Stan Lee, 2007

In many ways, I see Ultimate Spider-Man - and its current corresponding success - as more of an authentic fulfillment of Stan's vision for Spider-Man than the 616 comic has been in years.

True.

Mind you, Stan Lee did propose the "illusion of change" approach to Marvel continuity...which has since mutated into brand-enforced stagnancy.

But Stan also conceived of the Marvel Universe as a growing, evolving, changing world, and under his pen, Peter Parker did grow from a high-schooler to a college student - so it is but natural that he would eventually become a married man and a father over time.

That would make sense, too.



This. All of this. I'd even go so far as to that say we didn't really see high school-aged/focused adaptations of Spider-Man/Peter Parker until the 2000s with the original Ultimate Spider-Man comics, as (almost) everything that adapted him before then placed him as a college student in either his late teens or early twenties, the average age range for someone to attend college, with his high school years addressed only in flashbacks to his origin story and his motivations for crimefighting. The most seminal (and arguably most complete) adaptation of the web-slinger before then was the 90s animated series, which charted a lot of Peter's growth and development as a hero and a person, along with his relationships with his supporting cast and rogues' gallery, while having him as a college student for its entire duration and, again, only addressing his high school years as part of his beginnings in an extended flashback in the third season that had him explain to a little girl who admired him how and why he became Spider-Man. Not to mention, if you think about it, most of the really iconic supporting cast that we know and love today from Spider-Man --- Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson, Harry Osborn, Robbie Robertson, even Felicia Hardy/Black Cat --- didn't even show up until he started going to college or later, so that in and of itself puts the lie to the idea that Peter's best years as Spider-Man were exclusively when he was still in high school.

True.

Actually, I don't even think the 90's cartoon had him becoming Spider-Man in high school. Didn't the flashback establish him as being a college freshman? I'm pretty sure the spider bite happened at the ESU labs. The 60's cartoon likewise had Peter in college for its origin episode...as did the 80's one. (The reason was probably so that they could use the same animation model of college-aged Peter).

Even the Raimi film had him only fully become Spider-Man once he got to college (though the events of the origin took place in his final year of high school).

So yeah, its Ultimate Spider-Man that really created the perception of high-school being the default setting for the character. So its a sweet irony that the new Ultimate Spider-Man is pushing things in a radically different direction

As far as the iconic supporting cast and characters go - well, adaptations tend to 'backport' them into the high school years anyway. The most extreme case I suppose is Spider-Man being a member of the Avengers and a protegee of Iron Man in high school in the MCU!

[Huntsman Spider]

True.

Mind you, Stan Lee did propose the "illusion of change" approach to Marvel continuity...which has since mutated into brand-enforced stagnancy.

But Stan also conceived of the Marvel Universe as a growing, evolving, changing world, and under his pen, Peter Parker did grow from a high-schooler to a college student - so it is but natural that he would eventually become a married man and a father over time.



True.

Actually, I don't even think the 90's cartoon had him becoming Spider-Man in high school. Didn't the flashback establish him as being a college freshman? I'm pretty sure the spider bite happened at the ESU labs. The 60's cartoon likewise had Peter in college for its origin episode...as did the 80's one. (The reason was probably so that they could use the same animation model of college-aged Peter).

Even the Raimi film had him only fully become Spider-Man once he got to college (though the events of the origin took place in his final year of high school).

So yeah, its Ultimate Spider-Man that really created the perception of high-school being the default setting for the character. So its a sweet irony that the new Ultimate Spider-Man is pushing things in a radically different direction

As far as the iconic supporting cast and characters go - well, adaptations tend to 'backport' them into the high school years anyway. The most extreme case I suppose is Spider-Man being a member of the Avengers and a protegee of Iron Man in high school in the MCU!

Yeah, the fateful spider bite in the 90s animated series' continuity did happen at ESU's labs, although from my recollection, Peter at the time was there as a visitor wanting to see their display on the uses of radioactivity in a new field of science called "Neogenics," even name-dropping the Neogenic Recombinator that was a major feature in Season 2's arc "Neogenic Nightmare." He was trying to invite Liz Allan, who was a classmate and crush of his, to accompany him, and she turned him down pretty flat, with Flash Thompson then knocking him flat into a puddle for even daring to ask Liz to go out with him in the first place.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I feel like Peter would just be a hero in his 40s and you could avoid his kids being heroes or give them reduced powers. It's no different than what DC is doing with Superman or the Flash currently.

I'm fine with Spider-Man being about Youth but Youth doesnt stand still. Having him be 15 forever wouldn't be appealing to me. Youth is temporary so Peter moving forward is the way to go. Otherwise just have him live him in a timeless world like Archie or the Simpsons.

If Naruto and Goku could grow up then so can Peter.

[Huntsman Spider]

I feel like Peter would just be a hero in his 40s and you could avoid his kids being heroes or give them reduced powers. It's no different than what DC is doing with Superman or the Flash currently.

I'm fine with Spider-Man being about Youth but Youth doesnt stand still. Having him be 15 forever wouldn't be appealing to me. Youth is temporary so Peter moving forward is the way to go. Otherwise just have him live him in a timeless world like Archie or the Simpsons.

If Naruto and Goku could grow up then so can Peter.

Or even Batman, though Batman tends to have a belfry full of adopted kids, plus Damian as his biological son, that he fights crime alongside, so . . .

[Frontier]

Kids can make things complicated, as you can see from how many times writers have jumped through hoops around the kids or age them up as quickly as possible...

Even kid Annie only lasted for half of RYV.

[Lifetap]

Kids are easy to deal with as you really don't really need to deal with them if you don't want to, if they are young you just have to maybe show them every now and then in a 'it was a tough day and I am going to look at kid in the crib type of deal'. Every story doesn't need to have an update on kids as if you are having Peter fight Green Goblin what his kids are up to isn't important as there you don't need to constantly cut back to his home life every issue. For older kids it is even easier in my opinion as I would just throw the kids in Hogwarts. By that I mean just create a school for kids with powers (you could even say it is a legacy of the X mansion), then just say the kid is there and then if you want to explore that you now have a potential story where all the kids of heroes can meet (and add in some mutants) and go on their own wacky adventures and just have their hero parents show up in events or every once in a while.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Kids can make things complicated, as you can see from how many times writers have jumped through hoops around the kids or age them up as quickly as possible...

Even kid Annie only lasted for half of RYV.

thats a consequence of comic book time. Marvel and DC wanna have it both ways but they should just bite the bullet and commit to one style- either time moves forward or it doesnt.

[Frontier]

Kids are easy to deal with as you really don't really need to deal with them if you don't want to, if they are young you just have to maybe show them every now and then in a 'it was a tough day and I am going to look at kid in the crib type of deal'. Every story doesn't need to have an update on kids as if you are having Peter fight Green Goblin what his kids are up to isn't important as there you don't need to constantly cut back to his home life every issue. For older kids it is even easier in my opinion as I would just throw the kids in Hogwarts. By that I mean just create a school for kids with powers (you could even say it is a legacy of the X mansion), then just say the kid is there and then if you want to explore that you now have a potential story where all the kids of heroes can meet (and add in some mutants) and go on their own wacky adventures and just have their hero parents show up in events or every once in a while.

I think the issue is more so with Spider-Man where you would feel more obligated to address the family aspect and the consequences Peter's hero life has on it.