How will the success of Ultimate Spider-Man (2024) impact the franchise?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I dunno, I mean...Spencer didn't really advertise it was going to be a PeterxMJ centered run or get them back together, it was just a surprise in the first issue, I'm not seeing that as something they would use to market ASM. Especially when ASM is still selling.

Though obviously they marketed a married Spider-Man in promoting Ultimate quite a bit.

Keep in mind we don't know well ASM is selling but based on the amount of variant covers and images we see of multiple copies not selling, it's not an absurd possibility that ASM isn't selling well right now.

Spencer also probably wouldn't have gotten the go to reunite them in ASM had it not been for the success of RYV. If RYV can influence ASM like that, so will Ultimate.

[Spider-Tiger]

The make-ups and break-ups of Peter and Mary Jane have been a big draw for ASM since at least OMD (Arguably before when the couple was reunited in the JMS run) even when it's not overtly marketed. I think editorial is aware of this. People, in part, are picking up ultimate because of the current status quo in 616.

I fully expect them to reunite Peter and MJ in 616 once the "newness" of ultimate fades. Just as it happened with RYV. The question is whether they think having a flexible relationship status quo with Peter and MJ is still more viable than keeping them together indefinitely via marriage. I'm not convinced that current editorial would change their mind about that.

[Frontier]

Keep in mind we don't know well ASM is selling but based on the amount of variant covers and images we see of multiple copies not selling, it's not an absurd possibility that ASM isn't selling well right now.

Spencer also probably wouldn't have gotten the go to reunite them in ASM had it not been for the success of RYV. If RYV can influence ASM like that, so will Ultimate.

I dunno, feels like every time the topic comes up ASM is still trucking along even when a Gang War one-shot doesn't. I feel like if sales were really sagging there would have been something done about it by now.

I don't think RYV impacted Spencer's ASM. I mean, the book had already ended a while by that point if I remember right. I think it was more just his own personal preferences.

[bat39]

Tom Holland isn't going to be playing Peter Parker forever.

Do you think the next time they reboot Peter Parker they won't even think about Hickman's USM as something they could use as inspiration?

I dunno about USM, but I do feel there's a higher than average chance the next iteration of Peter Parker on-screen will be an adult.

[Spider-Tiger]

I don't think RYV impacted Spencer's ASM. I mean, the book had already ended a while by that point if I remember right. I think it was more just his own personal preferences.

I don't think it was a direct result, but I do think RYV opened the door for Peter and MJ getting back together as a couple in 616 after OMD. Spencer likely pitched it, but if RYV flopped, I doubt that editorial would have gone down that rabbit hole again. Ultimate once again reinforces that breaking up and reuniting the pairing sells books. So I imagine editorial will continue doing that. It's an easy way to boost sales (even if just temporary.)

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I dunno, feels like every time the topic comes up ASM is still trucking along even when a Gang War one-shot doesn't. I feel like if sales were really sagging there would have been something done about it by now.

I mean, they kinda are. They're doing the variant cover thing.

I don't know if there is anything unusual about them not course correcting yet. We know the comics industry needs about six months-ish to respond because of how much is planned in advance. I imagine it would also take a while to find a new writer, so Wells still being on the book is no dufferent from when Mackie continued to be on the book for a few more months.

If ASM doesn't get a new writer by late 2024 or early 2025, then yeah, maybe that would be unusual. But so far everything seems consistent with how long it takes Marvel to respond to stuff.

I fully expect them to reunite Peter and MJ in 616 once the "newness" of ultimate fades. Just as it happened with RYV. The question is whether they think having a flexible relationship status quo with Peter and MJ is still more viable than keeping them together indefinitely via marriage. I'm not convinced that current editorial would change their mind about that.

I don't know if they would bring the marriage back, but I think they will at least go back to the Spencer status quo and stick there for a while.

I doubt that anyone in current Editorial will make that decision; most likely it will come from above. I get the sense that there are only a handful of pro-OMD employees with authority left at Marvel (based on Cebulski's comment about it being a preference), and that plausible deniability is a huge factor in how BND-esque takes made it this far. As much as fans like to point out the lower quality of post-OMD comics or the drop in sales since 2007, none of those were ever Didio-level bad. They were never so bad to the point that there was no plausible deniability that something else caused those things.

I don't know if anyone has that kind of plausible deniability anymore. Even before USM, it seemed like the Wells run made Marvel lose complete control of the narrative. Then USM comes out and has monstrous success, with the marriage being a significant factor for the sales, in a time when the industry as a whole is suffering (therefore reducing even more plausible deniability about ASM - clearly lots of people are willing to throw money at Peter and MJ in spite of inflation and overall industry trends). Not to mention that retailers will definitely be pressuring Marvel now for more Peter/MJ content.

After all that, maybe there is still enough plausible deniability after to not undo OMD. But enough to keep Wells' status quo or do a BND 3.0 in the near future? That just doesn't sound realistic to me.

[MisterTorgo]

I dunno, feels like every time the topic comes up ASM is still trucking along even when a Gang War one-shot doesn't. I feel like if sales were really sagging there would have been something done about it by now.

I don't think RYV impacted Spencer's ASM. I mean, the book had already ended a while by that point if I remember right. I think it was more just his own personal preferences.

Well, they did push a lot of Gang War onto the Unlimited app early. Maybe the heaps or variants aren't selling as well as intended anymore? I imagine turning course would take a few months, so I'd like to think *some* course correction is happening that we just can't see yet but that might just be misplaced optimism.

[Frontier]

I dunno about USM, but I do feel there's a higher than average chance the next iteration of Peter Parker on-screen will be an adult.

It depends how long the MCU runs for because I think that's the only spot we're going to have live-action Spider-Man for the foreseeable future.

I mean, they kinda are. They're doing the variant cover thing.

I don't know if there is anything unusual about them not course correcting yet. We know the comics industry needs about six months-ish to respond because of how much is planned in advance. I imagine it would also take a while to find a new writer, so Wells still being on the book is no dufferent from when Mackie continued to be on the book for a few more months.

If ASM doesn't get a new writer by late 2024 or early 2025, then yeah, maybe that would be unusual. But so far everything seems consistent with how long it takes Marvel to respond to stuff.

Isn't that a lot of comics that do variants though? I don't think ASM is any different.

I feel like if Marvel was unhappy with ASM's sales they would've pulled Wells earlier, especially with all the controversy, but I think even Brevoort recently talked about how it's still selling well. Wells seems to be writing about the length he wanted to write the book.

I don't know if they would bring the marriage back, but I think they will at least go back to the Spencer status quo and stick there for a while.

I doubt that anyone in current Editorial will make that decision; most likely it will come from above. I get the sense that there are only a handful of pro-OMD employees with authority left at Marvel (based on Cebulski's comment about it being a preference), and that plausible deniability is a huge factor in how BND-esque takes made it this far. As much as fans like to point out the lower quality of post-OMD comics or the drop in sales since 2007, none of those were ever Didio-level bad. They were never so bad to the point that there was no plausible deniability that something else caused those things.

I don't know if anyone has that kind of plausible deniability anymore. Even before USM, it seemed like the Wells run made Marvel lose complete control of the narrative. Then USM comes out and has monstrous success, with the marriage being a significant factor for the sales, in a time when the industry as a whole is suffering (therefore reducing even more plausible deniability about ASM - clearly lots of people are willing to throw money at Peter and MJ in spite of inflation and overall industry trends). Not to mention that retailers will definitely be pressuring Marvel now for more Peter/MJ content.

After all that, maybe there is still enough plausible deniability after to not undo OMD. But enough to keep Wells' status quo or do a BND 3.0 in the near future? That just doesn't sound realistic to me.

I think it really just depends on the next writer and their take on Peter's relationships.

Whether they're pro-marriage, ambivalent to the marriage, open to Peter in different relationships, etc. Because that will probably matter more, or what editorial is pushing.

Of course there are also other factors going into why Ultimate is a success aside from just the marriage.

Well, they did push a lot of Gang War onto the Unlimited app early. Maybe the heaps or variants aren't selling as well as intended anymore? I imagine turning course would take a few months, so I'd like to think *some* course correction is happening that we just can't see yet but that might just be misplaced optimism.

Not sure about all of the tie-in's, though I guess that's the real reason they even did this as an "event."

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Isn't that a lot of comics that do variants though? I don't think ASM is any different.

To busy to go back and find the source, but someone here tracked the number of variant covers Wells' run has compared to previous runs and other books. The current ASM has a disproportionately higher amount of variant covers.

I feel like if Marvel was unhappy with ASM's sales they would've pulled Wells earlier, especially with all the controversy, but I think even Brevoort recently talked about how it's still selling well. Wells seems to be writing about the length he wanted to write the book.

Brevoort's comment is meaningless IMO. A higher-up like that isn't going to admit if the book is suffering, especially not right away or if he has a dog in the fight (which Brevoort absolutely does since he pushed for OMD). It's like when the McDonalds puffs his chest and says the company isn't losing any profits right now from people boycotting. (I know that what's happening with ASM isn't exactly a boycott, but the analogy still stands.)

Wells staying on the book is a bit unusual after ASM #26 but even then, it's not absurd depending on how long it takes to find a new writer. It seems like ASM is struggling pulling in new writers right now. Plus, we still don't know how much of the stuff from ASM#26 was just Wells carrying out orders and how much came from him. (If he was carrying orders to, say, kill Kamala, stuff like that would impact to what extent the higher-ups see the fallout as "his fault"). Plus his run could still be cut short.

I think it really just depends on the next writer and their take on Peter's relationships.

Whether they're pro-marriage, ambivalent to the marriage, open to Peter in different relationships, etc. Because that will probably matter more, or what editorial is pushing.

Maybe, but it's also common for editorial teams to look for someone who will deliberately make the run different from what came before. It could have even been part of why they went with Wells right after Spencer.

Of course there are also other factors going into why Ultimate is a success aside from just the marriage.

It's undeniable at this point that the marriage is a significant factor, though.

[Frontier]

To busy to go back and find the source, but someone here tracked the number of variant covers Wells' run has compared to previous runs and other books. The current ASM has a disproportionately higher amount of variant covers.

That might also be a result of the market.

Brevoort's comment is meaningless IMO. A higher-up like that isn't going to admit if the book is suffering, especially not right away or if he has a dog in the fight (which Brevoort absolutely does since he pushed for OMD). It's like when the McDonalds puffs his chest and says the company isn't losing any profits right now from people boycotting. (I know that what's happening with ASM isn't exactly a boycott, but the analogy still stands.)

Wells staying on the book is a bit unusual after ASM #26 but even then, it's not absurd depending on how long it takes to find a new writer. It seems like ASM is struggling pulling in new writers right now. Plus, we still don't know how much of the stuff from ASM#26 was just Wells carrying out orders and how much came from him. (If he was carrying orders to, say, kill Kamala, stuff like that would impact to what extent the higher-ups see the fallout as "his fault"). Plus his run could still be cut short.

I guess without hard sales it's impossible to say one way or another but I just don't think we have any concrete evidence that ASM is doing less than it usually does and we haven't seen any sign Marvel editorial thinks it has.

Maybe, but it's also common for editorial teams to look for someone who will deliberately make the run different from what came before. It could have even been part of why they went with Wells right after Spencer.

I think it's very possible that Wells has just been a pinch-hitter for editorial since Beyond, but as long as Nick Lowe is in charge it's anyone's guess what we're going to get from him.

It's undeniable at this point that the marriage is a significant factor, though.

It is definitely a factor, though Hickman and the Ultimate branding prestiege and the quality of the first issue were also big factors.

[Spider-Tiger]

I mean, they kinda are. They're doing the variant cover thing.

I don't know if there is anything unusual about them not course correcting yet. We know the comics industry needs about six months-ish to respond because of how much is planned in advance. I imagine it would also take a while to find a new writer, so Wells still being on the book is no dufferent from when Mackie continued to be on the book for a few more months.

If ASM doesn't get a new writer by late 2024 or early 2025, then yeah, maybe that would be unusual. But so far everything seems consistent with how long it takes Marvel to respond to stuff.



I don't know if they would bring the marriage back, but I think they will at least go back to the Spencer status quo and stick there for a while.

I doubt that anyone in current Editorial will make that decision; most likely it will come from above. I get the sense that there are only a handful of pro-OMD employees with authority left at Marvel (based on Cebulski's comment about it being a preference), and that plausible deniability is a huge factor in how BND-esque takes made it this far. As much as fans like to point out the lower quality of post-OMD comics or the drop in sales since 2007, none of those were ever Didio-level bad. They were never so bad to the point that there was no plausible deniability that something else caused those things.

I don't know if anyone has that kind of plausible deniability anymore. Even before USM, it seemed like the Wells run made Marvel lose complete control of the narrative. Then USM comes out and has monstrous success, with the marriage being a significant factor for the sales, in a time when the industry as a whole is suffering (therefore reducing even more plausible deniability about ASM - clearly lots of people are willing to throw money at Peter and MJ in spite of inflation and overall industry trends). Not to mention that retailers will definitely be pressuring Marvel now for more Peter/MJ content.

After all that, maybe there is still enough plausible deniability after to not undo OMD. But enough to keep Wells' status quo or do a BND 3.0 in the near future? That just doesn't sound realistic to me.

We'll see. After a certain point, they're going to be incentivized to shake things up again. No status quo today seems capable of holding sales up long term. It's those status quo changes, reboots, relaunches,etc. that have a track record of temporarily inflating sales in today's market. Though Ultimate had a very strong start, I'm not optimistic that it will continue to hold that high indefinitely.

In a continuity-driven book, Peter and Mary Jane dating eventually leads to a fork in the road. They basically have two options to choose from to change the status quo: either the couple breaks up again or the couple re-marries. Another break-up allows them to then try and capitalize on the controversy and on another reunion as they have with USM and RYV. But another wedding closes that opportunity for them.

Honestly, ASM has become a victim of its own success and a struggling market. Editorial will continue to do whatever they can to prioritize short term profits even at the expense of story. And understandably so. Which means we'll continue to see these superficial status quo changes and soft reboots of the title as we have with almost every run since Mackie.

What I'm hoping for is that someone up top eventually realizes that ASM continuity going back to the 1960s has become so convoluted, stale, and unsustainable, that they pull the trigger on a hard reboot for the main title and 616 continuity is eventually moved to a satellite book to be continued. That way main ASM can actually have stakes again. Those relaunches and shake-ups that editorial love would likely feel more organic without a sprawling continuity to contend with and a baseline status quo to reset to. And editorial likely wouldn't feel as compelled to use these tricks on a satellite (thereby allowing 616 continuity to have real progression and stakes as well.)

[Digifiend]

There is nothing to indicate they will alternate between live-action Peter Parker films and live-action Miles Morales films. The fact is that Holland won't be doing the role forever and has already openly mentioned stepping down from the role someday.

Assuming Sony will still have the Spider-Man film rights in the future (and there is nothing to indicate they won't), they will reboot Peter Parker again one day. Is it really hard to believe when that day comes that they might take inspiration from this very successful Spider-Man run?

I think Madame Web might have been intended to set up a new non-MCU Peter, as Ben Parker is in the film. I haven't actually seen it, but I heard that Mary appears too, and is pregnant? Thus, Peter is about to be born - 21 years ago. That means a new rebooted Peter would be in college at least. Madame Web's failure might force them to pivot though. If Holland quits, they should just do MCU Miles.

[Kevinroc]

https://www.thepopverse.com/marvel-u...comics-success

[Garlador]

I think it's too early to tell this early into the run. The impact of the story itself is just getting started.

HOWEVER, working on the assumption the quality remains consistent and readers remain engaged, I would very much hope that it has the same significant influence on Spider-Man media as Bendis's USM did back in the day. Cartoons and movies very much chased the spirit of Bendis's work. It spawned video game adaptations, tie-ins, and was widely held as "the direction" for many future Spider-Man stories by the public and those within the Spidey Offices. And, admittedly, it was a phenomenal run that deserved to leave an impact.

However, Hickman's approach in USM captures the same spirit of the hero, just in a vastly different circumstance, and I hope future media draws for it as effectively. I would very much love to explore this world in video games and see its take on characters influence future movies and shows.

If quality remains high and the readers keep showing up at the cash register, I'm confident we'll see more and more parts of the franchise emboldened to follow the path USM2024 has carved out.

[skyvolt2000]

Isn't that a lot of comics that do variants though? I don't think ASM is any different.

Food for thought....

Miles Morales current run has 133 different variants for 20 issues.
His former run had 211.

Carol Danvers 2019-2023 series had 225 for 50 issues.

House of Slaughter has 291 for 22 issues.

Batman's current book is at 888 at 147 issues since 2016.

Dynamite's Darkwing Duck at 10 issues has 291 variants.

Savage Dragon at over 260 issues only has 383 variants.

Something is killing Children has 512 variants for 37 issues.

Sam Wilson is all of his runs post 2015 has 108-45 issues.

Nightwing is at 343.

Spawn at over 350 issues is at 875.

Black Panther 2018-2024 is at 235.

Lumberjanes had 182 for 72 issues.

IDW's GI Joes had 541 for 300 issues.

Immortal Hulk that outsold Batman had 268 for 50 issues.


Amazing Spider-Man at 50 issues has 650 different covers.

This is from my CLZ Comics app of the KNOWN covers.

This is why folks say Marvel is inflating sales with variants.

Other books at Marvel do no have that many at 50 or lower issues.

Only book that came close was 2015-2019 Star Wars run at 408.