I personally find it odd that modern Marvel seems to want to completely bury Atlantis... metaphorically.
I personally find it odd that modern Marvel seems to want to completely bury Atlantis... metaphorically.
I listed 3 things. You focused on one. If you look at the facts of the character he is very high on the list on who's city/nation you wouldn't separate him from. Name, wings, characterization. Core elements of the character belong to a nation he operates in to throw Atlantis away shows one of those 3 things if not all of them.
and again you are missing the point that two are connected. More so than most characters are to their fictional cities.Again I never said Atlantis was unimportant to Namor's character, I said as a setting it's not interesting or unique.
If you're not going to reply to anything I actually said, and keep putting words in my mouth then I'm just not going go respond to you
We're going circles now....
Last edited by DragonsChi; 04-23-2024 at 02:16 PM.
Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.
We're only going in circles because you keep refusing to the things I actually said and expressed.
I said Marvel Atlantis is not a unique and interesting setting, not enough that keeps it from being changed and altered into a similar enough society like Talokan in the MCU.
I never said it was unimportant to Namor's character, and if Talokan is practically the same thing in every way that matters then really nothing important has actually changed.
Im going to agree to disagree...
Mostly because it's now more then clear that you haven't read much on Marvel's Atlantis or Namor. Which is fine.
Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.
I'm not familiar enough with Aquaman to comment on that, but it does seem odd. Then again, for Namor, plenty of hidden places keep cropping up.
Okay, those sound relatively recent for Aquaman.
Okay, that sounds about the same time, though it doesn't sound quite as important for him back then. For Namor it was his first arc of several stories, and it even showed up on Namor's first issue, which pretty much made it iconic for the character since then.
Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?
Namor and Atlantis already had connection to vibranium with Roy Thomas' addition / retcon of the purpose of the Oracle's trip to Antarctica back in the 1968 Subby #1. The Oracle came looking for vibranium, and other things.
Well, I'd have preferred if they could have made MCU Namor much more like the comics, with Atlantis and being the first Marvels with Original Human Torch and fighting in WWII with Cap and Torch and encountering the FF and etc. etc. etc. But I knew, given the history of the MCU, that was mostly gone -- so I can't blame WF for that. I certainly would have been happier had he been introduced in the FF, where he probably could have been closer to the original comic character, and not have a tie to the Black Panther franchise. Yes, the changes made worked for Coogler's story with the Black Panther. I'd have preferred that Marvel had introduced MCU Namor in a story and way that worked best for Namor. But it's not a perfect world and I'm glad we got at least what I consider the essence of Namor in the MCU version.
There's definitely a split amongst the Namor fans about the MCU Namor's changes, and probably what each considers essential, but for me, for the reasons I stated, it worked for me, given the circumstances.
Everything outside of the comics are adaptations, and I don't expect much from them. I wish they would quit invading the comic books.
Last edited by Reviresco; 04-24-2024 at 01:31 AM.
Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?
I have to disagree that the change to Mayan wasn't necessary for Coogler's story. He's talking about the conflict between colonizers and indigenous people over resources, with both the Wakandans and the Talokanil. Having a Mayan origin, which was actually driven into the sea by the Spanish colonizers, gave them an experience to draw from that the Wakandans didn't have -- while giving them a mutual cause and connection.
If Coogler had kept it Atlantis, then just as comic readers miss that theme of the surface, (Western powers) exploring and exploiting what isn't theirs, the Atlantean oceans, they'd have missed it in the movie. Nor does comic book Atlantis have the Atlanteans fleeing to the ocean to escape colonizers.
I'm going to have to partially disagree with you here, as far as Namor is concerned, and Coogler. He clearly understood aspects of the character's personality, and IMO, he wouldn't have given Namor ankle wings and the green trunks and the pointy ears. He wouldn't have have had Namor's introduction mirror Bill Everett's origin story, from the panel with the platform being lowered off the ship, to the 'robotic' looking pair of divers with diving bell like helmets, having their air and communication tethers cut by Namor. He kept Princess Fen and her importance to Namor. He even threw in the fan service with the Imperius Rex, and tried to keep his name -- even if they were both quite different.
We can argue about whether or not all of his changes were necessary, but I honestly feel like Coogler read the books and knew the character. Now whether we agree with his take on the character ... again, that's arguable.
Again, I disagree on this assessment of Coogler. But I agree, he had his own agenda for the film, which is where some of the changes you object to came from. But that's his job as a director -- to have an agenda, a story he wants to tell, a PoV. That's why I really wish we'd gotten Namor introduced in his own movie or show, where the agenda would be in support entirely for Namor.
As for Atlantis being uninteresting or not unique in the comics ... I'll have to go back and read this thread. I don't understand that take. It is singular in the MU, and I wish the comic would do more with it.
Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?
Again I'm 50/50 on this and I my intent is not to push Atlantis or even say that the change shouldn't have happened at all.....but....
I completely understand what your saying and the implications that you are using and what was actually used in the movie based on cultural heritage and background. But if todays world has or really is teaching us...is that Human Beings will find whatever reason they like to hate, take, or even to an extent oppress anyone their side disagrees with.
Just as easily as Coogler used the colonization, Spanish heritage, and so on as an allegory in the film the same could have been used for a fictional city such as Atlantis. There are far to many historical context of people being self-serving in history, across all Colors, Religions, and Heritable Backgrounds to say " well this instant just had to be used" .
Again, I get what you saying and I am very grateful for your insight on the conversation. You brought up some things I actually had to consider. However, ultimately I disagree.
To me its hard to determine how much research Coogler and/or the writers did on Namor. Most of things you mentioned are very surface level info about the character that anyone could grab from a wiki. However, you have encouraged me to re-watch the film to see if there is something I missed to discard that part of the list I created.
Last edited by DragonsChi; 04-24-2024 at 08:11 AM.
Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.
The thing with Clea is only an issue due to the shared universe logic. Clea is a character in Wonder Woman stories.... and has never been in ANY comic book with Aquaman.... Wonder Woman has been in a LOT of comics with Aquaman.... but not Clea.
One thing I would love is to have a JL comic where Clea shows up as part of some bad guy team and Aquaman is like "has anyone seen where the Trident of Poseidon went?" And then Clea waves it in front of his face.
Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?