Namor being Aztec/Mayan in the Marvel Movie universe. Yay or Nay?

[marhawkman]

I personally find it odd that modern Marvel seems to want to completely bury Atlantis... metaphorically.

[DragonsChi]

Because that doesn't really mean anything to me when you've just told me you've decided the writers don't care or know about Namor because they changed him ways they thought made sense for the story they're making.

I listed 3 things. You focused on one. If you look at the facts of the character he is very high on the list on who's city/nation you wouldn't separate him from. Name, wings, characterization. Core elements of the character belong to a nation he operates in to throw Atlantis away shows one of those 3 things if not all of them.

Again I never said Atlantis was unimportant to Namor's character, I said as a setting it's not interesting or unique.

If you're not going to reply to anything I actually said, and keep putting words in my mouth then I'm just not going go respond to you

and again you are missing the point that two are connected. More so than most characters are to their fictional cities.

We're going circles now....

[PhantomBoom]

I listed 3 things. You focused on one. If you look at the facts of the character he is very high on the list on who's city/nation you wouldn't separate him from. Name, wings, characterization. Core elements of the character belong to a nation he operates in to throw Atlantis away shows one of those 3 things if not all of them.



and again you are missing the point that two are connected. More so than most characters are to their fictional cities.

We're going circles now....

We're only going in circles because you keep refusing to the things I actually said and expressed.

I said Marvel Atlantis is not a unique and interesting setting, not enough that keeps it from being changed and altered into a similar enough society like Talokan in the MCU.

I never said it was unimportant to Namor's character, and if Talokan is practically the same thing in every way that matters then really nothing important has actually changed.

[DragonsChi]

Im going to agree to disagree...

Mostly because it's now more then clear that you haven't read much on Marvel's Atlantis or Namor. Which is fine.

[PhantomBoom]

Im going to agree to disagree...

Mostly because it's now more then clear that you haven't read much on Marvel's Atlantis or Namor. Which is fine.

See? And this is what I mean.

Because I don't find Marvel Atlantis you've decided that means I couldn't have read up on Namor.

[Reviresco]

Hmmm.... Well.. there's been 3 magic Tridents associated with Atlantis in DC... Triton's seems to be from 1997. Neptune's seems to be from 1980. Poseidon's... I'm really not sure. One character who uses it(Clea) IS a character from the 40s. But I can't find any reference indicating she actually used it in the 40s. But whether Clea used it doesn't matter much if it's not Aquaman using it.... and Clea doesn't talk to Aquaman often. It's weird. King of Atlantis, most politically important Atlantean alive.... never met the queen of Venturia....

I'm not familiar enough with Aquaman to comment on that, but it does seem odd. Then again, for Namor, plenty of hidden places keep cropping up.

Okay, those sound relatively recent for Aquaman.

ok found one usage of the Trident of Poseidon that dates back to 1964... but as Poseidon's weapon he used AGAINST Aquaman. However..... Arthur ends up with it in his possession at the end of the story...

Okay, that sounds about the same time, though it doesn't sound quite as important for him back then. For Namor it was his first arc of several stories, and it even showed up on Namor's first issue, which pretty much made it iconic for the character since then.

[Reviresco]

I think far too many people aren't concerned about whether or not the character actually feels like who should they be and if they fit into the world and story they're in, and more concerned about whether they look, act, and do the exact same things, regardless of it fits the story or not, or if it even makes sense.

As you say Namor's history just can't work in the MCU without heavily retconning stuff to fit him in and make it that he was always around, that would just result in a worse story and character for the sake of accuracy.

It seems people often forget that the word "adapt" actually means to change and alter something so that it's more suitable for different mediums and stories, not just ripping something 100% from the page and putting on the screen logic be damned.
That's how you get something like Zack Snyder's Watchman where despite keeping like 99% of the comic story and even recreating many of the comics panels in the movie it still ends up missing the point and message of the story and characters.

Like ditching Atlantis, and giving the character Mayan roots that are connected to Vibranium just made sense for this version of the character, and works for the story that's being told with him.

I mean heck recently I saw someone complaining that in X-Men 97 Cassandra Nova wasn't behind the Genosha massacre, but she just doesn't make sense for this version of the story, while the actual culprit(who I won't spoil) does make sense because they're already an existing villain who's been involved with the X-Men in this continuity.

Namor and Atlantis already had connection to vibranium with Roy Thomas' addition / retcon of the purpose of the Oracle's trip to Antarctica back in the 1968 Subby #1. The Oracle came looking for vibranium, and other things.

Well, I'd have preferred if they could have made MCU Namor much more like the comics, with Atlantis and being the first Marvels with Original Human Torch and fighting in WWII with Cap and Torch and encountering the FF and etc. etc. etc. But I knew, given the history of the MCU, that was mostly gone -- so I can't blame WF for that. I certainly would have been happier had he been introduced in the FF, where he probably could have been closer to the original comic character, and not have a tie to the Black Panther franchise. Yes, the changes made worked for Coogler's story with the Black Panther. I'd have preferred that Marvel had introduced MCU Namor in a story and way that worked best for Namor. But it's not a perfect world and I'm glad we got at least what I consider the essence of Namor in the MCU version.

There's definitely a split amongst the Namor fans about the MCU Namor's changes, and probably what each considers essential, but for me, for the reasons I stated, it worked for me, given the circumstances.

Everything outside of the comics are adaptations, and I don't expect much from them. I wish they would quit invading the comic books.

[Reviresco]

Like ditching Atlantis, and giving the character Mayan roots that are connected to Vibranium just made sense for this version of the character, and works for the story that's being told with him.

But I did want to point out the misstep in logic here...the bold could have easily been switched out and it wouldn't have changed anything outside of it being more true to the character original history. It wasn't necessary for the story nor did it make it better.

It's just another long list of changes that the MCU has made that makes you scratch your head and go "Well ...ok".

I have to disagree that the change to Mayan wasn't necessary for Coogler's story. He's talking about the conflict between colonizers and indigenous people over resources, with both the Wakandans and the Talokanil. Having a Mayan origin, which was actually driven into the sea by the Spanish colonizers, gave them an experience to draw from that the Wakandans didn't have -- while giving them a mutual cause and connection.

If Coogler had kept it Atlantis, then just as comic readers miss that theme of the surface, (Western powers) exploring and exploiting what isn't theirs, the Atlantean oceans, they'd have missed it in the movie. Nor does comic book Atlantis have the Atlanteans fleeing to the ocean to escape colonizers.

To add, I'm pretty much neutral about the change. What I don't like however, is the fact that the people who never really take the time to read the books, to get to know the characters, nor take any real effort or cadence to make an attempt to are primarily the ones who make the most effort to insert unnecessary changes. Ignoring the fact that the thing they are trying to change has been SUCCEESFULLY around for 70 plus years as is and then are completely dumbfounded when their take does not make any money and/or fails. And then the failure of which hampers chances for that property to get other chances in the future. Not saying that will happen to Namor but its a trajectory the MCU is own unless some course correction is made.

I'm going to have to partially disagree with you here, as far as Namor is concerned, and Coogler. He clearly understood aspects of the character's personality, and IMO, he wouldn't have given Namor ankle wings and the green trunks and the pointy ears. He wouldn't have have had Namor's introduction mirror Bill Everett's origin story, from the panel with the platform being lowered off the ship, to the 'robotic' looking pair of divers with diving bell like helmets, having their air and communication tethers cut by Namor. He kept Princess Fen and her importance to Namor. He even threw in the fan service with the Imperius Rex, and tried to keep his name -- even if they were both quite different.

We can argue about whether or not all of his changes were necessary, but I honestly feel like Coogler read the books and knew the character. Now whether we agree with his take on the character ... again, that's arguable.

Not trying to play gotcha at all. What you seem to be missing is that Atlantis's is imbedded into Namor as a character. From his name all the way down to his pixi ankle wings.

The reason why I keep saying that the change was a head scratcher even though Im 50/50 on it, a few times now, is because it MORE than obvious that the person who made the decision to change the setting for Namor in the movie either didn't really know anything about him, didn't really care about the character, or had their own agenda they wanted to set forth for the film.

His name is Roman backwards, he has the wings of hermes on his feet, he behaves as a Roman Royal, and yet none of that is connected at all to the cultural heritage of Atlantis? Right.

It's fine if you like the change. Its fine that you dislike Marvel's Atlantis or just don't find it interesting. But you can't say that Atlantis is uninteresting and then say that its not essential to Namor, when almost 90% of the characters development for the past 70-90 years revolved around it. It's like saying Gotham is not interesting and unessential to Batman.

Again, I disagree on this assessment of Coogler. But I agree, he had his own agenda for the film, which is where some of the changes you object to came from. But that's his job as a director -- to have an agenda, a story he wants to tell, a PoV. That's why I really wish we'd gotten Namor introduced in his own movie or show, where the agenda would be in support entirely for Namor.

As for Atlantis being uninteresting or not unique in the comics ... I'll have to go back and read this thread. I don't understand that take. It is singular in the MU, and I wish the comic would do more with it.

[DragonsChi]

I have to disagree that the change to Mayan wasn't necessary for Coogler's story. He's talking about the conflict between colonizers and indigenous people over resources, with both the Wakandans and the Talokanil. Having a Mayan origin, which was actually driven into the sea by the Spanish colonizers, gave them an experience to draw from that the Wakandans didn't have -- while giving them a mutual cause and connection.

If Coogler had kept it Atlantis, then just as comic readers miss that theme of the surface, (Western powers) exploring and exploiting what isn't theirs, the Atlantean oceans, they'd have missed it in the movie. Nor does comic book Atlantis have the Atlanteans fleeing to the ocean to escape colonizers.


I'm going to have to partially disagree with you here, as far as Namor is concerned, and Coogler. He clearly understood aspects of the character's personality, and IMO, he wouldn't have given Namor ankle wings and the green trunks and the pointy ears. He wouldn't have have had Namor's introduction mirror Bill Everett's origin story, from the panel with the platform being lowered off the ship, to the 'robotic' looking pair of divers with diving bell like helmets, having their air and communication tethers cut by Namor. He kept Princess Fen and her importance to Namor. He even threw in the fan service with the Imperius Rex, and tried to keep his name -- even if they were both quite different.

We can argue about whether or not all of his changes were necessary, but I honestly feel like Coogler read the books and knew the character. Now whether we agree with his take on the character ... again, that's arguable.


Again, I disagree on this assessment of Coogler. But I agree, he had his own agenda for the film, which is where some of the changes you object to came from. But that's his job as a director -- to have an agenda, a story he wants to tell, a PoV. That's why I really wish we'd gotten Namor introduced in his own movie or show, where the agenda would be in support entirely for Namor.

As for Atlantis being uninteresting or not unique in the comics ... I'll have to go back and read this thread. I don't understand that take. It is singular in the MU, and I wish the comic would do more with it.

Again I'm 50/50 on this and I my intent is not to push Atlantis or even say that the change shouldn't have happened at all.....but....

I completely understand what your saying and the implications that you are using and what was actually used in the movie based on cultural heritage and background. But if todays world has or really is teaching us...is that Human Beings will find whatever reason they like to hate, take, or even to an extent oppress anyone their side disagrees with.

Just as easily as Coogler used the colonization, Spanish heritage, and so on as an allegory in the film the same could have been used for a fictional city such as Atlantis. There are far to many historical context of people being self-serving in history, across all Colors, Religions, and Heritable Backgrounds to say " well this instant just had to be used" .

Again, I get what you saying and I am very grateful for your insight on the conversation. You brought up some things I actually had to consider. However, ultimately I disagree.

To me its hard to determine how much research Coogler and/or the writers did on Namor. Most of things you mentioned are very surface level info about the character that anyone could grab from a wiki. However, you have encouraged me to re-watch the film to see if there is something I missed to discard that part of the list I created.

[marhawkman]

I'm not familiar enough with Aquaman to comment on that, but it does seem odd. Then again, for Namor, plenty of hidden places keep cropping up.

The thing with Clea is only an issue due to the shared universe logic. Clea is a character in Wonder Woman stories.... and has never been in ANY comic book with Aquaman.... Wonder Woman has been in a LOT of comics with Aquaman.... but not Clea.

One thing I would love is to have a JL comic where Clea shows up as part of some bad guy team and Aquaman is like "has anyone seen where the Trident of Poseidon went?" And then Clea waves it in front of his face.

[Reviresco]

The thing with Clea is only an issue due to the shared universe logic. Clea is a character in Wonder Woman stories.... and has never been in ANY comic book with Aquaman.... Wonder Woman has been in a LOT of comics with Aquaman.... but not Clea.

One thing I would love is to have a JL comic where Clea shows up as part of some bad guy team and Aquaman is like "has anyone seen where the Trident of Poseidon went?" And then Clea waves it in front of his face.

That sounds a little like things that isn't generally known in the shared universe. Namor and Atlantis has a few things like that. Cause, TBH, I don't know DC's Clea either. lol