View Poll Results: If DC Kills the New 52 - Which Continuity Should Return?

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  • Pre-Crisis

    49 14.24%
  • Post-Crisis

    108 31.40%
  • Neither - Start over!

    84 24.42%
  • Im fine with it the way it is

    103 29.94%
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  1. #1426
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Sort of like the support groups we pre-n52 fans set up and were belittled for by n52 fans? Go for it. And with any luck, you’ll be treated better than we were.
    This sounds like revisionist history to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    Except the New52 fans aren't whining about it nearly as much as you pre-n52 fans were. You don't see us filling up every thread on this and other DC-related boards with crying for what we lost.
    As for being treated better. DC literally put out a book calling our favorite continuity loveless, lacking in legacy, etc., etc. and used it to restore (however badly botched) your precious continuity.
    Sounds more like what really went down. The majority opinion for the first few years was a perception that the new universe was a bad thing. People who were willing to give it a chance would chime in to preach open-mindedness, but as I recall the complaints only stopped with Rebirth. And now, finally, a lot of fans are saying that New 52 wasn't all that bad. No one was treated poorly. That's just a way to keep complaining. I'm not calling anyone a whiner, just calling it as I see it.

    To whom it may concern: You got what you wanted. Leave it at that and be happy.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 11-28-2018 at 12:55 PM.

  2. #1427

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    Quote Originally Posted by NexusTenebrare View Post
    Except the New52 fans aren't whining about it nearly as much as you pre-n52 fans were. You don't see us filling up every thread on this and other DC-related boards with crying for what we lost.
    As for being treated better. DC literally put out a book calling our favorite continuity loveless, lacking in legacy, etc., etc. and used it to restore (however badly botched) your precious continuity.
    Tell me something I donít know, Nexus.

    Frankly, Rebirth messed things up, Dark Nights Metal is borderline nihilistic in its grimdarkness and Doomsday Clock is utterly pointless.
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  3. #1428
    More human than human thetrellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAHSIYATSI View Post
    I know this may be a bit of a firestorm. But I like the new 52. I was a marvel reader that got to lost in the complicated story lines. You had to read 5 books to understand the story (ie avengers dissemble, civil war, house of m, planet hulk, secret invasion, dark avengers, Thor, just to understand seige). It was crazy
    Even for those who had no trouble following, that entire period was awful from start to finish. Planet Hulk was good, but stretched the whole "strongest one there is" deal too far, and what followed with WWH was just Hulk porn. We all get it. No one is stronger. Was it really necessary to demonstrate it so blatantly? Plus the AD stuff and everything stemming from it was terrible. Marvel has two universes on one Earth: the world of mutants, driven by hate and fear; and the more respected superheroes. If you were into mutant mania, odds are the other titles didn't quite do it for you. But if you enjoyed something more light hearted, as I do? No way did I want to see the entire MU become the kind of paranoid fare that served the X-heroes so well. Civil War was a terrible move, just awful. I read every series you mentioned, and by 2011 I'd had my fill. Marvel had finally managed the unthinkable. They made me leave.

    They were my mainstay. Quitting them after 40 years of loyalty left me seriously considering giving up comics altogether.

    And if it weren't for the New 52, I would have. Then the nay sayers refused to leave it alone. DC should have stuck to their guns. Really. If fans wanted old lore reestablished, new takes on that lore could and should have been written. It would have been great. Just like having a Zod based on Byrne's vision of Krypton would have been fantastic. All these die-hard fans who couldn't stand change really screwed things up. They refused to see it as a chance to fall in love all over again. Not just for fans with their heroes, but also for Lois and Clark, for Iris and Barry.

    Now we were stuck with Superdad and life lessons for his stupid kid.

    And though he's trying, I don't think Bendis is the one to fix that. He was a huge part of everything that messed up the MU. Superheroes aren't his forte at all. Let him make sweeping changes to the status quo and watch it all fall apart. Hey, I liked the pre-Flashpoint universe too. But there was real value what the New 52 was doing. There was no need to retcon just for Wally's comeback or for Clark and Lois to get together again. You have to know it was going to happen anyway, and would have been all the better for the super-affair having run its course. Now the WW/SM romance is pointless and led nowhere.

    Rant concluded. Letting go now.
    Last edited by thetrellan; 01-15-2019 at 03:18 PM.

  4. #1429

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrellan View Post
    Even for those who had no trouble following, that entire period was awful from start to finish. Planet Hulk was good, but stretched the whole "strongest one there is" deal too far, and what followed with WWH was just Hulk porn. We all get it. No one is stronger. Was it really necessary to demonstrate it so blatantly? Plus the AD stuff and everything stemming from it was terrible. Marvel has two universes on one Earth: the world of mutants, driven by hate and fear; and the more respected superheroes. If you were into mutant mania, odds are the other titles didn't quite do it for you. But if you enjoyed something more light hearted, as I do? No way did I want to see the entire MU become the kind of paranoid fare that served the X-heroes so well. Civil War was a terrible move, just awful. I read every series you mentioned, and by 2011 I'd had my fill. Marvel had finally managed the unthinkable. They made me leave.

    They were my mainstay. Quitting them after 40 years of loyalty left me seriously considering giving up comics altogether.

    And if it weren't for the New 52, I would have. Then the nay sayers refused to leave it alone. DC should have stuck to their guns. Really. If fans wanted old lore reestablished, new takes on that lore could and should have been written. It would have been great. Just like having a Zod based on Byrne's vision of Krypton would have been fantastic. All these die-hard fans who couldn't stand change really screwed things up. They refused to see it as a chance to fall in love all over again. Not just for fans with their heroes, but also for Lois and Clark, for Iris and Barry.

    Now we were stuck with Superdad and life lessons for his stupid kid.

    And though he's trying, I don't think Bendis is the one to fix that. He was a huge part of everything that messed up the MU. Superheroes aren't his forte at all. Let him make sweeping changes to the status quo and watch it all fall apart. Hey, I liked the pre-Flashpoint universe too. But there was real value what the New 52 was doing. There was no need to retcon just for Wally's comeback or for Clark and Lois to get together again. You have to know it was going to happen anyway, and would have been all the better for the super-affair having run its course. Now the WW/SM romance is pointless and led nowhere.

    Rant concluded. Letting go now.

    I have to say, that IS putting it mildly.
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  5. #1430
    Fantastic Member red winter's Avatar
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    i'll admit wasn't a big fan but I would love to have seen a crossover between Grayson/Frankenstein/Grifter and the World's Finest (Powergirl & Huntress).
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  6. #1431
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    I think the best way to describe the continuity thing about the New 52, the backlash, the defense, the weird DCYou and other gimmicks, Rebirth, and this new Bendis-in-one-corner-Heroes-In-Crisis-in-The-other thing is this:

    Everyone loves good books, and good writing... but once you get invested in a story, having it cut down for any reason hurts like hell. And unfortunately, the one constant from Pre-Flashpoint to now is that everyone has lost something that seemed damn intriguing and fun to them... and usually it’s several somethings they miss.

    The reason Pre-Falshpont fans maybe raised a little bit more hell was because (it can be argued) they lost a bit more than New 52 fans - who still lost a lot of things that were pretty damn interesting. The New 52, for the longest time, blocked out most of an generation of heroes who had devoted fans dying to see their story continued...but that’s not to say that those character had it better Pre-Flashpoint. Some characters, like Roy Harper, Wonder Woman, and Superman were in pretty abysmal places before Flashpoint. But if you were a fan of previous stories for those characters, you probably felt there were other ways to “fix” them - and in the case of Wonder Woman, it might have seemed like DC was just repeating the same mistake they did previously...

    ...And the thing about the New 52, in the long run, was that it wound up suffering from the same issues Pre-Flashpoint did, so that even the bright spots of the New 52, the unqualified successes (Wonder Woman for the first few years), and the hopeful starts started burning off readers. And they just didn’t have the same fan base to fall back on, because of you tell some hardcore fans of a character or team that they stuff they love doesn’t count anymore, than your new stuff starts to take a dive... they’re unlikely to give you a shot because to them, removing stuff in the first place is causing the problems.

    There’s actually a lot of things that soured people on the New 52 - and that got them onboard - that have clear precedents and foreshadowing from Pre-Flashpoint:

    - Pre-Flashpoint Teen Titans started strong, then started to fall apart, with the few good runs buried as filler arcs and ultimately hitting utter nadirs of taste and quality... just like the New 52 Teen Titans.

    - Creative and office drama caused major issues with the Superman books Pre-Flashpoint... and continued in the New 52.

    - Wonder Woman was dealing with a new continuity that eventually developed issues stemming from creator changes burning what goodwill the previous run may have already had... as seen again in the New 52.

    - Green Lantern was in the middle of a Geoff Johns Renaissance... and continued that going forward. The Batman books likewise passed from one genius to another...

    - Though I’ll argue that the Batfamily shows how the New 52 maybe exacerbated an already occurring issue, pitting different Bat-family-member fans against each other, as Jason and Babs ascended while Tim, Steph, and Cass descended.

    So really, the problems that plagued Pre-Flashpoint DC still plagued New 52 DC - BUT! there was no tradition and legacy of continuity to fall back on, and some fans had been unnecessarily aggravated. Rebirth and Bendis are ultimately trying, in some way, to resurrect that continuity to act as a support structure... but it won’t really matter if DC’s editorial doesn’t manage to more consistently produce good content across the board, instead of in little pockets.
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  7. #1432
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Exactly. I feel like Johns was trying to do with DCU Rebirth what he did with Green Lantern Rebirth: reintroduce elements that had been shut out of the setting for too long (Hal Jordan and the GLC in one case; the legacies, families, and sense of hope in the other) while integrating it into as much of what was still there as possible — which is why he told Didio “why would you do that?” when Didio told him he was planning on pulling the plug on the New 52. Ironically, Johns is the reason why the New 52 wasn't shut down completely; and while there have been losses from the New 52 (e.g., the N52 Superman and the Superman/Wonder Woman romance), much of its legacy continues on to this day.

    And frankly, I don't agree with all of the decisions that were made in Rebirth. Superman Reborn could have been handled better: while I had no problem with the idea of merging the two versions of Superman, I wish that more of the N52 version had survived: my ideal would have been to treat the N52 version as the early years of Superman's career: say that he arrived in Metropolis in the jeans-and-shirt look, took a job with George Taylor at the Daily Star, spent a year or so with the N52 Superman's attitude, dated Wonder Woman for a time, moved over to Perry White at the Daily Planet, started dating Lois, and proceeded from there as per the timeline we ended up with in Superman Reborn. This would have preserved nearly all of the N52 Superman history save for the Truth and Last Days of Superman arcs, albeit tucked away in the past.

    But other than that, my feeling is that New 52 has mostly been preserved; it's just been enriched by pre-Flashpoint elements that had been lost. And in that regard, it's still a work in progress.
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  8. #1433
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    I think one of the other reasons the New 52 wound up raising some hell was because of the uneven application across the various lines and how it impacted a particular line of books that hadn’t yet really suffered some of other issues plaguing Wonder Woman, Superman, or Teen Titans - The BatBooks. Oh, and some issues caused by the fact that Geoff Johns is mortal.

    I mean, if you were a Flash fan who’d just been told that Geoff Johns was going to try creating a Green Lantern-esque Renaissance of Flash books, then you were probably taken aback to see that wasn’t the case anymore... but he was going to continue working his magic basically unimpressed on Hreen Lantern at the same time. You want to talk about aggravating Wally West fans? Try telling them that there can be only one Flash and one unrelated Kid Flash while Green Lantern is still fielding not just all the classic Earth Lanterns but adding to their numbers, and doesn’t seem to have *any* continuity changes.

    Meanwhile, Batman fans were grumbling and griping at some of the changes the New 52 brought... even though objectively the Batline wasn’t as effected as most of the other lines, save Green Lantern. All four male Robins were still in publication... but modified to fit a new marketing strategy. The Batgirls situation became a mess when Steph and Cass were exiled back to limbo, and it didn’t help matters with other female Bat-characters when the first Helena Bertinelli’s turned out to be Helena Wayne. Batman Inc continued... but had to deal with an obnoxiously long hiatus because the story featured Stephanie Brown.

    But the Bat books not only hung in there, but remained a pillar of DC sales and quality.

    And I think the key to that, and maybe the one thing that the New 52 couldn’t quite solve regardless of its reboot-esque prerogatives clashing with a desire to preserve momentum from guys like Johns, was that they needed to have a stable of great writers and dependable journeymen beneath them... but outside of the BatBooks and Green Oantern series, that rarely managed to hold true.

    The Superman books suffered much more from a rotating roster of writers than they did from going back to a young Superman. You had Grant Morrison! Boom! That’s great! But Perez got fired, Diggle got fired, and a guy like Scott Lobdell became a major player primarily because he was willing to play ball with editorial (and while he has his fans, he’s also strictly a journeyman at the best of times and was slowly turning the Titan fans against him.) Wonder Woman started strong, though not without complaint, under Azzarello!... Then the Finches took over. The Flash book started strong!... Then faded with a new creative team.

    Only the Batman and Green Lantern lines seemed to field by-and-large strong and deep stables of writers for their books from Pre-Flashpoint through the New 52. And eventually stuff started falling through the cracks there as well, with Catwoman eventually biting the dust after a bad run was followed by a radically different run, and the Green Lantern Books wound up with Hoodie Hal.
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  9. #1434
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    Although some of my all-time favorite books are Pre-Crisis, the quality of books that came out during the late 80s and through the 90s is tough to beat.

    Therefore, I'm going with Post-Crisis.

  10. #1435
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    I'm just mad we never saw Atomica inside Scorch in Forever Evil. Sure, we got a description from Atomica, but I don't want to have to imagine it and the part of me OBSESSED with the human body wants to see Atomica inside Scorch's head. If anyone can draw, could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE from the bottom of my heart draw an alternative take on that scene where we see Atomica inside Scorch? PLEASE? I'll donate you my copy of Detective Comics #1000 if you do.

  11. #1436
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    New 52 Cyborg is NOT A RAPPER

    (you know what I'm referring to!)
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  12. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Exactly. I feel like Johns was trying to do with DCU Rebirth what he did with Green Lantern Rebirth: reintroduce elements that had been shut out of the setting for too long (Hal Jordan and the GLC in one case; the legacies, families, and sense of hope in the other) while integrating it into as much of what was still there as possible — which is why he told Didio “why would you do that?” when Didio told him he was planning on pulling the plug on the New 52. Ironically, Johns is the reason why the New 52 wasn't shut down completely; and while there have been losses from the New 52 (e.g., the N52 Superman and the Superman/Wonder Woman romance), much of its legacy continues on to this day.

    And frankly, I don't agree with all of the decisions that were made in Rebirth. Superman Reborn could have been handled better: while I had no problem with the idea of merging the two versions of Superman, I wish that more of the N52 version had survived: my ideal would have been to treat the N52 version as the early years of Superman's career: say that he arrived in Metropolis in the jeans-and-shirt look, took a job with George Taylor at the Daily Star, spent a year or so with the N52 Superman's attitude, dated Wonder Woman for a time, moved over to Perry White at the Daily Planet, started dating Lois, and proceeded from there as per the timeline we ended up with in Superman Reborn. This would have preserved nearly all of the N52 Superman history save for the Truth and Last Days of Superman arcs, albeit tucked away in the past.

    But other than that, my feeling is that New 52 has mostly been preserved; it's just been enriched by pre-Flashpoint elements that had been lost. And in that regard, it's still a work in progress.
    And I'm surprised they didn't do this. And I think that if New 52 hadn't generated such bad blood among both fans and people around the offices, this might very well have been what we got. Johns was put back in charge of Superman. Given a choice between Morrison's origin and his own, it's not that hard to figure out which one he would pick. Even if Morrison's made more sense and would have been the better compromise. But I think the attitude around the DC offices at that time, particularly among the Superman office, was that "New 52 sucks! Pull it out root and branch!" Fans wanted the marriage back. I don't think they really cared about the rest all that much. I personally loved the New 52 Superman and still won't pick up the main books out of anger. I think if cooler heads had prevailed, we might be looking at what you suggested.

    The real problem at DC, as near as I can tell, is that it appears to be Didio and Lee versus everyone else. Didio hates "legacy" characters and clearly wants to start at zero. Lee just seems to want to run the place like Image and let creators do their own thing regardless of the continuity. Forgetting that's one of the things that killed the Image-verse to begin with. Johns and a good chunk of the rest clearly just want to go back to the pre-Flashpoint universe. And it looks like they got their wish. At least in regards to Superman.
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  13. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    And I'm surprised they didn't do this. And I think that if New 52 hadn't generated such bad blood among both fans and people around the offices, this might very well have been what we got. Johns was put back in charge of Superman. Given a choice between Morrison's origin and his own, it's not that hard to figure out which one he would pick. Even if Morrison's made more sense and would have been the better compromise. But I think the attitude around the DC offices at that time, particularly among the Superman office, was that "New 52 sucks! Pull it out root and branch!" Fans wanted the marriage back. I don't think they really cared about the rest all that much. I personally loved the New 52 Superman and still won't pick up the main books out of anger. I think if cooler heads had prevailed, we might be looking at what you suggested.

    The real problem at DC, as near as I can tell, is that it appears to be Didio and Lee versus everyone else. Didio hates "legacy" characters and clearly wants to start at zero. Lee just seems to want to run the place like Image and let creators do their own thing regardless of the continuity. Forgetting that's one of the things that killed the Image-verse to begin with. Johns and a good chunk of the rest clearly just want to go back to the pre-Flashpoint universe. And it looks like they got their wish. At least in regards to Superman.
    Part of the issue that I think came down against the New 52 was that I don’t think there was that much investment in its main parameters by creators who were investing their time long term in the product. I mean, Morrison was arguably the biggest single contributor to New 52 Superman, but he was gone once his arc was done, and the Superman book became a musical chairs game of writers, with a guy like Scott Lobdell becoming more of a firm hand in the project because he got along better with editorial than other serious, respected writers. This meant that you had fewer big name writers excited at the prospect of working on a “New 52” book, and since Lee was the guy behind a bunch of the new costume designs, you didn’t have that much investment from the artists either.

    This meant that the main guys invested in the New 52’s biggest defining aspects and status quos were the editors... and they’d by and large chosen those rules and status quos out of cold marketing-based calculations, so they weren’t enamored with the ideas like “Superman with attitude” but instead with what they thought those ideas would lead to: $$$. And when the $$$ stopped flowing from those ideas, they rejected them. And without anyone in creative as enamored with New 52 Superman as his fans were, you get the backlash of rebirth seeming to reject him.

    Another part of this is how I think Dan Didio, on some level, genuinely believes that they can somehow replicate a more “early Silver Age” style status quo, where the quality of writing doesn’t matter as much as the strength of a reliable and repeatable marketing strategy, and how he’s paired with Bob Harras, who probably doesn’t see some of the issues that Marvel had in the 90’s being based off them focusing on marketing and artwork as well.
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  14. #1439
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    I actually believe the fact that DC keeps changing the "norm" is more of a problem that just picking something and sticking with it.
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  15. #1440
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    Decent, need to accomplish something like this with mine.

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