The return of the Mighty Mighty New 52 Discussion thread

[vaf2675]

So when I say "Public letdown" I mean a title or a creative team or an event or whatever that was heavily in the spotlight for a while but fell apart either creatively or simply didn't live up to expectations.

My candidates would be (In order of disappointment):

- Justice League of America
Heavily hyped in Justice League itself for ages. Posters plastered everywhere. 52 insane variant covers and for what exactly? Five issues that led rather half heartedly in to the Trinity War story. Five issues featuring rapidly deteriorating art by David Finch and then Brett Booth. Insane delays on the title between issues 2 and 3 (!!!). That overly long Forever Evil was a total waste of time and money. Hopefully Justice League United will be better.

-Superman Unchained
Jim Lee and Scott Snyder and Superman!!! Right after the Man of Steel movie as well! Crazy poster sized spread sheet page in the first issue! Multiple Variant covers every issue!!! But for me, Superman Unchained has been a real letdown. Jim Lee's art is all over the place and isn't nearly as sharp as what it normally is. Snyder's story has multiple events going on but very little progress each issue. Batman is crow-barred into the story because he's Batman that's why! Sporadic issue releases plus months between plot progression (Remember when Lex Luthor was doing stuff in the comic, like, five months ago? Me neither) really kill off what could have been either a fantastic limited series or a really cool ongoing superman title.

-Andy Diggle on Action Comics
Heavily hyped with splashy preview pages in every book and a really cool original cover art by Tony S Daniel. It really seemed like this would be new awesome comic book. Diggle seemed pumped in interviews to do amazing things, Daniel was creating beautiful art. But then...well I still don't know what happened! Diggle bolted before a single issue hit the stands. The lovely cover for issue 18 was replaced with a half hearted WTF fold out cover. Tony S Daniel took over plotting for a bizarre and nonsensical story of a hybrid...thing that did...something...I think? Hey wasn't Parasite supposed to be in here?

-Pandora
Who is Pandora? What does she want? How did she reboot the universe? Why did she reboot the universe? All these questions and more certainly will never see a satisfying answer ever as Pandora went from sinister hooded mystery woman to boring stupid person her moaned about a box that held all the sins, only it was a really a gateway to earth 3 and blah blah blah, go away Pandora!!!

-Trinity War (and the whole trinity of sin story in general)
Ever since that cool free comic book day issue, the trinity of sin was at the forefront of DC. What did they have in store? What was the trinity war? Well who knows!? And who really cares anyway because now it's all about Forever Evil and whahey!!! Now we have Pandora wandering around doing who knows what and a creepy Question who's not Montoya so I don't really care what he does now. At least we got a really cool Phantom Stranger out of it.

-Forever Evil's constant delays
Because sometimes all you can do is laugh.

The whole New 52 has been a huge letdown.

And I'm betting there's more coming in 2015 (Crisis 30th anyone?)

[vaf2675]

but with professionals you'd think they'd have some sense of looking ahead by this point.

Nope, they don't. That's why they keep rebooting over and over and over.

[Archies League]

So I take it you're not a fan of the New 52. Just guessing here, but you wouldn't happen to be a Marvel fan would you? It kind of undercuts your whole rant when sales in 2013 were 20% higher than before the reboot (from 23 million to 28.5 million).

So what exactly does being a Marvel fan have to do with any of those? Stupid actions are stupid regardless. And you don't seem to see that the reboot is starting to erode because of them (not that I agree with all of them). I think the reboot was needed and necessary. Completely agree still it was the right move but DC seems to be determine to blow the gift so much attention and readers they were given. Just look at Teen Titans (which I liked okay). It had readers that stuck with it and stuck with it. Instead of addressing some of the issues (again, not in agreement with many I've seen here) they allow the title to just decay to the point I'm concerned if people will care for another relaunch of it. They did the same thing with Green Arrow. Let it suck for such a long time that now that its really good, its absent all those readers it lost during the suck period. Many titles are treated that way and frankly, I find it curious how the search for a great Superman team can require so much attention they don't see this which they did actually work on when it was having problems.

[Lee Stone]

So what exactly does being a Marvel fan have to do with any of those? Stupid actions are stupid regardless. And you don't seem to see that the reboot is starting to erode because of them (not that I agree with all of them). I think the reboot was needed and necessary. Completely agree still it was the right move but DC seems to be determine to blow the gift so much attention and readers they were given. Just look at Teen Titans (which I liked okay). It had readers that stuck with it and stuck with it. Instead of addressing some of the issues (again, not in agreement with many I've seen here) they allow the title to just decay to the point I'm concerned if people will care for another relaunch of it. They did the same thing with Green Arrow. Let it suck for such a long time that now that its really good, its absent all those readers it lost during the suck period. Many titles are treated that way and frankly, I find it curious how the search for a great Superman team can require so much attention they don't see this which they did actually work on when it was having problems.

I agree that a reboot was needed, as well.
Hence, even with the costume redesigns and team changes announced prior to launch, I was still excited about it.
Until I read the first issues.

[vaf2675]

Out of your list I would vote none of the above.

(1) JLA was a prelude to Trinity War/FE. Nothing more. The whole team was assembled by the government to battle the JL - that reason went away. It's now been replaced by something better.

(2) Superman Unchained - Jim Lee doesn't draw many comics anymore. Jim Lee is still easily the most popular comic book artist. Jim Lee puts out work slowly. If you buy another book that has Jim Lee as an artist, guess what - there are going to be delays. Happens every single time. For me, it's worth the wait.

(3) Andy Diggle on Action - For all of the crazy speculation, this one is pretty simple. Andy Diggle left Action because he got a better offer. He may have tried to blame it on X, Y or Z, but that was just deflection for an unprofessional move. Robert Kirkman offered him his own book (which is going to be turned into a TV Show) and Diggle saw Walking Dead $$$$$$$$. He jumped, that's it.

(4) Was anyone ever that invested in Pandora to really care that much? But why do people act like it hasn't been explained? Her "box" was a device that allowed transport between Earth-1 and Earth-3 (and probably elsewhere in the multiverse). That's all you really need to know

My biggest disappointment would be the absolute gutting of the Teen Titans. Just a flat out dumpster fire in one of my favorite DC brands

Jim Lee shouldn't get a "wait for it he's worth it" excuse. He used to be able to do monthly books before, so why all of a sudden is it so difficult for him o keep a schedule? If he is going to commit to a series he should stick to it and make sure it comes out on time! Do you know how many series he's left unfinished!?!?! Go take a look at a top 10 list Newsarama did, four or five of the series mentioned had him listed as the artist. That is just being plain irresponsible!

As for Pandora, they have yet to explain what the hell she had to do with the creation of the New 52. Or wait, was that Pandora in Flashpoint from the previous Universe and the New 52 Pandora has no idea about anything that happened in Flashpoint? Is that their lame excuse?

[vaf2675]

Why is it DC can't do what Marvel does?

You don't see Marvel completely rewriting it's history every few years! You don't see Marvel destroying decades of continuity just because it would make their lives simpler and maybe attract new readers! You don't see Marvel alienating huge chunks of its fan base by completely recreating characters with decades of history behind them! If Marvel needs to retweak something they do slight retcons or even big ones like they did for Spider-Man in OMD, but they never ever rewrite the entire history of their Universe! And it has worked out wonderfully for them! WHY CAN'T DC DO THAT!?!?!?!

[Aliltron]

I'd have to agree on the lack of a Shazam title. I was super pumped thinking we'd get one after the back-ups, but nothing yet. Hopefully sometime down the road we'll get one.

[Conway]

Nightwing and Dick Grayson. (Since we've already mentioned TT several times I'll skip that part.)

He was never the boy wonder, he was an older teen wonder I guess. Bludhaven never happened, and Chemo was just created, so all of that is gone. He never led a team because Teen Titans was the first non-JL team created in this Universe (and it was started by Tim). We have no idea why he left Batman to become Nightwing. Now he's "dead" and a secret agent that has nothing to do with the rest of the DCU.

[GDC3]

Jim Lee shouldn't get a "wait for it he's worth it" excuse. He used to be able to do monthly books before, so why all of a sudden is it so difficult for him o keep a schedule? If he is going to commit to a series he should stick to it and make sure it comes out on time! Do you know how many series he's left unfinished!?!?! Go take a look at a top 10 list Newsarama did, four or five of the series mentioned had him listed as the artist. That is just being plain irresponsible!

As for Pandora, they have yet to explain what the hell she had to do with the creation of the New 52. Or wait, was that Pandora in Flashpoint from the previous Universe and the New 52 Pandora has no idea about anything that happened in Flashpoint? Is that their lame excuse?

That was when he was just an artist. Probably pre-kids and marriage too. Easier to burn the candle at both ends then. Also, he became Publisher of Wildstorm. (Which is when I remember the delays affecting Wildcats) Then Editor at DC, concept artist for the high priority DCU online game. Now co-Publisher of the entire line of comics. A job function that occupies a good chunk of his time throughout the day. Go home, family time, wife time, fit art in when he can. If it means getting any Jim Lee art in a year I'm fine with that. I'm sure he does plan to commit to them and does have time when he signs on the dotted line to do so. Ish comes up, usually from on high. I'm sure he can't blow off a production meeting, investor's conference, fiscal planning sessions, or quarterly reviews with Diane Nelson because he has pages to get done. The simple fix, obviously would be to not solicit books until he is 100% done. But if it is planned as a long series that might not work.

And most artists and writers get a "wait for it he's worth it pass." It's a creative driven industry.

As for Pandora, why do they have to explain it right away? It's what, only year 3? I'm in no rush.

[Blackfist]

Why is it DC can't do what Marvel does?

You don't see Marvel completely rewriting it's history every few years! You don't see Marvel destroying decades of continuity just because it would make their lives simpler and maybe attract new readers!

Marvel are sneakier actually, DC do big scale continuity shifts while Marvel do stupid little changes in continuity that eventually build up to make no sense only to comeback and say

MavelSpinMachine: It was all a lie, don't worry all those terrible stories that happened because of it still happened but it's just an avoidable arc in the tapestry of our universe. Even though it lead to a heroes fighting heroes event. Even though it makes no sense to past stories. Even though...

You see where i'm going with this. Marvel Pull the rug DC tear up the old rug and buy a new similar one.


the Young Justice line is a far worse let down IMO.

[Lee Stone]

Why is it DC can't do what Marvel does?

You don't see Marvel completely rewriting it's history every few years! You don't see Marvel destroying decades of continuity just because it would make their lives simpler and maybe attract new readers! You don't see Marvel alienating huge chunks of its fan base by completely recreating characters with decades of history behind them! If Marvel needs to retweak something they do slight retcons or even big ones like they did for Spider-Man in OMD, but they never ever rewrite the entire history of their Universe! And it has worked out wonderfully for them! WHY CAN'T DC DO THAT!?!?!?!

Because ever since the first Crisis, DC has been cursed with being an easy opportunity for creators in power to recreate an entire universe in their image.
I'm pretty sure the next time there's a power shift, it'll happen again.

Whereas, with Marvel, it's all about building onto what came before, or filling in the holes.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Nope, they don't. That's why they keep rebooting over and over and over.

They keep rebooting it over and over because otherwise Bruce Wayne would now be 99 years old. He might take vitamins, but I doubt the kung fu works with a walker. And hard rebooting it twice in 75 years into so bad is it?

[Blackfist]

Because ever since the first Crisis, DC has been cursed with being an easy opportunity for creators in power to recreate an entire universe in their image.
I'm pretty sure the next time there's a power shift, it'll happen again.

Whereas, with Marvel, it's all about building onto what came before, or filling in the holes.

Or letting ego write stories, Bendis does some cool things but he really likes to tinker with things that didn't need it.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Because ever since the first Crisis, DC has been cursed with being an easy opportunity for creators in power to recreate an entire universe in their image.
I'm pretty sure the next time there's a power shift, it'll happen again.

Whereas, with Marvel, it's all about building onto what came before, or filling in the holes.

You must be joking. Marvel has had more soft reboots, half reboots, I think we just rebooted reboots and plain old hard reboots than DC has ever thought about having. They might be a little more discreet about it by not announcing "Hey, this is a reboot" but Marvel Now was in a lot of cases a reboot. How many times has the Fantastic Four started over now? Yes, they always retain 1/100th of what came before so no one can claim reboot!, but it's like a record repeating over and over. And you don't think Spider-Man is rebooting right now? Clever way to do it, but Spidey had become such a mess they had to wipe the slate. What about X-Men? How many times has Wolverine been rebooted? Again, more subtetly than completely starting over, but pretty damn close too

[The Fn Man]

I am going with Earth 2, they tell James Robinson to create his own Universe. Then try to dictate to him how to create "his" Universe.

The entire reboot was mostly trash with the exception of the books that did not reboot Batman & Green Lantern(series).