The return of the Mighty Mighty New 52 Discussion thread

[Mattrick]

You must be joking. Marvel has had more soft reboots, half reboots, I think we just rebooted reboots and plain old hard reboots than DC has ever thought about having. They might be a little more discreet about it by not announcing "Hey, this is a reboot" but Marvel Now was in a lot of cases a reboot. How many times has the Fantastic Four started over now? Yes, they always retain 1/100th of what came before so no one can claim reboot!, but it's like a record repeating over and over. And you don't think Spider-Man is rebooting right now? Clever way to do it, but Spidey had become such a mess they had to wipe the slate. What about X-Men? How many times has Wolverine been rebooted? Again, more subtetly than completely starting over, but pretty damn close too

Except every Marvel story published is still in continuity unless someone else later removed it.

[GDC3]

Continuity is a bit overrated.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Except every Marvel story published is still in continuity unless someone else later removed it.

Really? I'm just picking on the Fantastic Four because it's easy - you really think through their now 6th attempt to relaunch that series that those earlier books are still in any kind of continuity that can reasonably be called that? OK, then

[AlexanderLuthor]

Jim Lee shouldn't get a "wait for it he's worth it" excuse. He used to be able to do monthly books before, so why all of a sudden is it so difficult for him o keep a schedule? If he is going to commit to a series he should stick to it and make sure it comes out on time! Do you know how many series he's left unfinished!?!?! Go take a look at a top 10 list Newsarama did, four or five of the series mentioned had him listed as the artist. That is just being plain irresponsible!

As for Pandora, they have yet to explain what the hell she had to do with the creation of the New 52. Or wait, was that Pandora in Flashpoint from the previous Universe and the New 52 Pandora has no idea about anything that happened in Flashpoint? Is that their lame excuse?

Oh, I don't know, maybe being the co-publisher of the entire line probably has something to do with it. He also supervises the artists on every book. Not to mention promotional appearances and other corporate functions because he is still the biggest name in comics. Superman Unchained is a completely self contained story that doesn't affect anything else so really the delays do nothing. So why does he still sign up to do things? Probably because he still enjoys drawing and every issue that does come out is a Top 5 selling book.

As for Pandora, she has stated explicitly she doesn't know, but I bet if you're patient (the line started a whole 3 years ago) you'll get some explanation in the coming Earth-1 and 2 War. Or maybe you won't and you can come back here and cry about it

[AlexanderLuthor]

So what exactly does being a Marvel fan have to do with any of those? Stupid actions are stupid regardless. And you don't seem to see that the reboot is starting to erode because of them (not that I agree with all of them). I think the reboot was needed and necessary. Completely agree still it was the right move but DC seems to be determine to blow the gift so much attention and readers they were given. Just look at Teen Titans (which I liked okay). It had readers that stuck with it and stuck with it. Instead of addressing some of the issues (again, not in agreement with many I've seen here) they allow the title to just decay to the point I'm concerned if people will care for another relaunch of it. They did the same thing with Green Arrow. Let it suck for such a long time that now that its really good, its absent all those readers it lost during the suck period. Many titles are treated that way and frankly, I find it curious how the search for a great Superman team can require so much attention they don't see this which they did actually work on when it was having problems.

Well, sales disagree with you. DC has always had some books that were good and some that were bad, that's not a reboot thing. I don't think there is anyone inside or outside of DC that would say that the reboot was handled flawlessly, we all know that, but I would argue there was no way to do it flawlessly - and no, I'm sure whatever your idea was isn't any better and would have had just as many problems. Although your solution of hey, let's just make every book great is appealing.

[Mattrick]

Yes, that's how it works. They don't erase the previous continuity when they do a re-numbering.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Yes, that's how it works. They don't erase the previous continuity when they do a re-numbering.

I read all of Marvel's books, as well. When you say they don't erase the previous continuity with a re-numbering that's pretty generous. Does Ben walk up to Johnny and say "Hey, I'm Ben Grimm nice to meet ya?" No, but they are "starting over". And maybe we are asking the wrong question because my own feeling is that Marvel is long overdue for some housecleaning. In X-Men we are at the point where the original X-Men are in the present, picking up sides with the current X-Men, and fighting the future evil X-Men - that screams it's time to clean up some stuff. There is now a past Jean Grey in the same time with the past and current Cyclops and fighting against the future Charles Xavier all in the present

[Lee Stone]

Pop quiz time:

Who are the founding members of the Avengers?
Who's membership never really happened?
X-Men?

Who are the founding members of the Justice League?
Who's membership never really happened?
Teen Titans?

[AlexanderLuthor]

Pop quiz time:

Who are the founding members of the Avengers?
Who's membership never really happened?
X-Men?

Who are the founding members of the Justice League?
Who's membership never really happened?
Teen Titans?

Founding Avengers: Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, Wasp and Hulk
Now Avengers: Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk and a cast of hundreds
Never Happened: I would have to check on Wasp. Pretty sure Hank Pym is considered an Avenger

Founding JL: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter
JL New 52 Founders: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash and Green Lantern
Never Happened: Really no one, although MM did join JLA instead

And you do realize that because of the 5 year time jump most of the JLA stories from the Silver Age through Morrison and Waid's runs are considered to have happened...many have been referenced.

What's your point?

[hammergiant]

1. Stormwatch- A title with a real chance to shake the status quo. Bringing that group into the DCU, with Martian Manhunter as a member, was clearly set up as a rival to the Justice League. It even went so far as to give us a brief scene of Apollo fighting Superman. Then that promise was all washed away. Manhunter left the team. Stormwatch was only to deal with external alien threats. They were removed from the rest of the DCU and by the time of Forever Evil, they were forgotten. The creative team changes didn't help and the reboot of the reboot with Starlin was a desperation move. All in all, a great idea that came to nothing.

2. Ron Marz removed from Voodoo. This was the beginning of the end for me and the Nu52. I bought the title from the reboot because of Marz. He was removed after four issues even after he agreed to make changes in the book demanded by editorial. This was the first of many creative/editorial clashes which seriously blunted any momentum of the reboot.

3. Wally West- I don't even know where to begin with that travesty.

[Lee Stone]

1. Stormwatch- A title with a real chance to shake the status quo. Bringing that group into the DCU, with Martian Manhunter as a member, was clearly set up as a rival to the Justice League. It even went so far as to give us a brief scene of Apollo fighting Superman. Then that promise was all washed away. Manhunter left the team. Stormwatch was only to deal with external alien threats. They were removed from the rest of the DCU and by the time of Forever Evil, they were forgotten. The creative team changes didn't help and the reboot of the reboot with Starlin was a desperation move. All in all, a great idea that came to nothing.

2. Ron Marz removed from Voodoo. This was the beginning of the end for me and the Nu52. I bought the title from the reboot because of Marz. He was removed after four issues even after he agreed to make changes in the book demanded by editorial. This was the first of many creative/editorial clashes which seriously blunted any momentum of the reboot.

3. Wally West- I don't even know where to begin with that travesty.

They actually dropped the ball by not leading into a Wildcats series with Voodoo and Grifter.
And Gen13 really should have been a Young Justice title.

[AlexanderLuthor]

They actually dropped the ball by not leading into a Wildcats series with Voodoo and Grifter.
And Gen13 really should have been a Young Justice title.

I agree with this. I would like to see them restart the YJ line with Gen 13

[Kapparition]

My list:

1) The Wildstorm characters-- Honestly, much of these characters were gutted by having them integrated with the DC universe. They should have been kept in their own universe or introduce them slowly in high profile books such as JL. I mean why care about Midnighter and Apollo when you have Batman and Superman? In their own universe the Wildstorm characters were top dogs. In the DC universe, they are barely B listers at best.

2) The Young Justice line-- They had a chance to build something like the Young Justice tv show and they didn't run with it. Instead we got boring teen titles that nobody cared about.

[steeplejack2112]

As far as I'm concerned the whole ball of wax has been a letdown.

[Kurosawa]

More than anything, the new 52 and the MOS movie show more than ever why the best thing that could ever happen to these great characters would be for WB and DC to go out of business, and for all of these characters to be public domain. They will not and can not treat these characters with any amount of respect. All they have done from COIE on is retcon other people's stories. NOT A SINGLE STORY written by ANY of their characters creators is part of this weeks canon.

The constant reboots just sends a message of desperation and that DC has no confidence in their characters and their stories. More than anything, they lack pride and vision.