The return of the Mighty Mighty New 52 Discussion thread

[Dataweaver]

As I read the issue, it wasn't Superman's powers that altered reality; it was the environment he was in. Much like Superboy Prime didn't have any reality-altering powers, but the Paradise Dimension that Alex Luthor took them to did. And because of that, SBP was able to trigger changes by punching walls. In a similar way, it wasn't Superman's powers that blended the two timelines together; it was Red and Blue coming together in whatever the place was that Mxy had taken them to.

[Buried Alien]

As I read the issue, it wasn't Superman's powers that altered reality; it was the environment he was in. Much like Superboy Prime didn't have any reality-altering powers, but the Paradise Dimension that Alex Luthor took them to did. And because of that, SBP was able to trigger changes by punching walls. In a similar way, it wasn't Superman's powers that blended the two timelines together; it was Red and Blue coming together in whatever the place was that Mxy had taken them to.

Superboy-Prime's origins in the Earth-Prime universe did factor into his ability to alter the timeline of the DCU by punching the walls of the paradise dimension. In THE KINGDOM, Kal-L punched that same wall, but did not incur any time or reality-altering effects. Remember that in the Pre-COIE Multiverse, Earth-Prime was supposed to represent the real Earth...where all superheroes were fictional and DC writers and editors such as Julius Schwartz, Cary Bates, and Elliot S! Maggin pulled the strings of the Multiverse. Hence, Superboy-Prime, a native of Earth-Prime, had this ability to affect events that Kal-L and the others didn't.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Dataweaver]

Fair enough. Bear in mind that before Superman Reborn, Jon was born on a worlds that encompassed the Vanishing Point.

[thetrellan]

Superboy-Prime's origins in the Earth-Prime universe did factor into his ability to alter the timeline of the DCU by punching the walls of the paradise dimension. In THE KINGDOM, Kal-L punched that same wall, but did not incur any time or reality-altering effects. Remember that in the Pre-COIE Multiverse, Earth-Prime was supposed to represent the real Earth...where all superheroes were fictional and DC writers and editors such as Julius Schwartz, Cary Bates, and Elliot S! Maggin pulled the strings of the Multiverse. Hence, Superboy-Prime, a native of Earth-Prime, had this ability to affect events that Kal-L and the others didn't.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Also, there's this:
ACTION 976 (16).jpg
I believe the thing that "was broken" was their memories of each other, and "Now this?" is their memories and the memories of everyone who knows them reaching an accord. Mxy claimed they altered reality, but memory is part of reality. Mind doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is an aspect of reality. If we learned anything from Wally's return, it was that.

And the thing is, even though I know this is different, Wally revived memories with a touch from the previous reality, but he didn't have to with Superman. Because Superman was the only other person from that previous reality. I had assumed that the Speed Force let Wally do that, but what if it wasn't? It would reasonable to assume that the Superman family had the same ability, only possibly stronger.

[thetrellan]

Fair enough. Bear in mind that before Superman Reborn, Jon was born on a worlds that encompassed the Vanishing Point.

Telos was a world outside time and space. Vanishing Point was a place at the end of time, which Brainiac accessed to learn about the Earths he transported cities from to inhabit Telos.

But you did good, because in researching this, I discovered it was Jon who changed his parents into the New 52 versions, by channeling the spirits of his not-parents. It was the duality of spirits from 2 universes occupying the same bodies that changed reality.

Damn. How lame is it that I had to resort to Wikipedia to understand a story I already read? This is one tale which could have used a little expositional narration.

[Buried Alien]

Also, there's this:
ACTION 976 (16).jpg
I believe the thing that "was broken" was their memories of each other, and "Now this?" is their memories and the memories of everyone who knows them reaching an accord. Mxy claimed they altered reality, but memory is part of reality. Mind doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is an aspect of reality. If we learned anything from Wally's return, it was that.

And the thing is, even though I know this is different, Wally revived memories with a touch from the previous reality, but he didn't have to with Superman. Because Superman was the only other person from that previous reality. I had assumed that the Speed Force let Wally do that, but what if it wasn't? It would reasonable to assume that the Superman family had the same ability, only possibly stronger.

Interestingly, Power Girl experienced a similar effect when she came into physical contact with Kal-L and Earth-Two's Lois Lane.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Darkseid Is]

Am a weirdo for loving the New 52? Seriously... The post crisis/pre flashpoint/whatever the hell you want to call it universe was my bread and butter. I love it to death. How people have grown up on the silver age or the whatever age, I grew up on that age. I read tons of books, enjoyed tons of books, followed the continuity, learned about the characters. Everything was fine and dandy. It got to the point where I felt like I was familiar with every character and knew what I would like and what I wouldn't like. Then the New 52 came along and changed everything. What's canon? What isn't canon? How is this version of the character different than the old version? Who are Apollo and Midnighter and Grifter and Voodoo and all these new characters? Things are changing... I... like it! I'm interested again! I feel like a new comics reader again! The best feeling ever! That's my opinion on the New 52... Was it perfect? No. But it was the right direction in my opinion. I think they should have started fresh. Go for it, see what happens

[Darkseid Is]

Maybe I'm coming from a weird place here. Every day I look on CBR forums and try to understand different people's point of views. Don't get me wrong I appreciate them all. There are new comics readers and people who have been reading before I was born. But when I look back at it my two favorite comics of all time (Dark Knight Returns, All-Star Superman) they aren't in continuity.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... are people upset because they think the quality of the New 52 books are low. Or are the upset because "Wally West doesn't exist... all those comics I've enjoyed for years have all been a pack of lies... DC hates me."

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I guess what I'm trying to say is... are people upset because they think the quality of the New 52 books are low. Or are the upset because "Wally West doesn't exist... all those comics I've enjoyed for years have all been a pack of lies... DC hates me."

They're not mutually exclusive. People are upset because the New 52 was both low in terms of quality and invalidated the comics that they loved from the past several decades of DC Comics.

[Darkseid Is]

They're not mutually exclusive. People are upset because the New 52 was both low in terms of quality and invalidated the comics that they loved from the past several decades of DC Comics.

I can respect that.

[Darkseid Is]

I personally think there was a lot of quality to come out of the New 52 books. Snyder's Batman, John's Justice League and Aquaman and Green Lantern (although there's a little dip after Johns but I understand Hal and the GL Corps is great now), Morrison's Action (here we go again! I'm just teasing, I love you Zeeguy) Azarello's Wonder Woman might be my favorite book of the line, then there's OMAC, Batman and Robin, Swamp Thing, Animal Man and Stormwatch. It's just my opinion. Maybe it's because I never read Teen Titans or JSA. Those seem to be the most effected books and what you hear about most.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I personally think there was a lot of quality to come out of the New 52 books. Snyder's Batman, John's Justice League and Aquaman and Green Lantern (although there's a little dip after Johns but I understand Hal and the GL Corps is great now), Morrison's Action (here we go again! I'm just teasing, I love you Zeeguy) Azarello's Wonder Woman might be my favorite book of the line, then there's OMAC, Batman and Robin, Swamp Thing, Animal Man and Stormwatch. It's just my opinion. Maybe it's because I never read Teen Titans or JSA. Those seem to be the most effected books and what you hear about most.

But I think its fair to keep in mind that a good amount of those titles didn't receive a lot of praise from the critics or the fanbase, even if you loved them. Johns's Justice League for example was kind of skewered by critics and fans alike, most of whom didn't like the portrayal that was given of Superman or Wonder Woman or several other characters. The opening arc was considered by many to be the most disappointing portrayal of Darkseid in a long time. People only started warming up to it after Throne of Atlantis. Stormwatch was also one of those titles that fans really didn't take a liking to. Even Azzarello's Wonder Woman was highly controversial because of some of the creative choices that Azz made with the Amazons and Diana's origins. Many WW fans felt that they had been betrayed.

[Darkseid Is]

But I think its fair to keep in mind that a good amount of those titles didn't receive a lot of praise from the critics or the fanbase, even if you loved them. Johns's Justice League for example was kind of skewered by critics and fans alike, most of whom didn't like the portrayal that was given of Superman or Wonder Woman or several other characters. The opening arc was considered by many to be the most disappointing portrayal of Darkseid in a long time. People only started warming up to it after Throne of Atlantis. Stormwatch was also one of those titles that fans really didn't take a liking to. Even Azzarello's Wonder Woman was highly controversial because of some of the creative choices that Azz made with the Amazons and Diana's origins. Many WW fans felt that they had been betrayed.

That feels to me like "DC HATES ME" more than the quality of the book. The fact they're changing stuff is why people don't like it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That feels to me like "DC HATES ME" more than the quality of the book. The fact they're changing stuff is why people don't like it.

Even so, that's still not an illegitimate reason not to like something, especially when the N52 was not real, organic change and was instead the definition of forced and regressive change. For example, Clark and Lois having their whole marriage erased from continuity when they'd already developed their relationship Pre-FP. It would be a different story if, say, Cyborg joined a new iteration of the League in a long line of Leagues, keeping his Titans history, as opposed to having the histories of both the League and the Titans erased from continuity. If we had gotten the former instead of the latter, then people would have been much more welcoming of the change.

[Darkseid Is]

I don't know. It's all how you look at it. Superman's book has been incredibly mediocre since he married Lois. Once again it's all opinion but I'm sure a lot of people agree with this. Wally became the Flash. The journey was over. His book was rotten for a long while before the New 52. Most of this **** got stale. It needed a kick in the ass.