The return of the Mighty Mighty New 52 Discussion thread

[Darkseid Is]

There are points in stories where you can't develop any further.

[thetrellan]

They're not mutually exclusive. People are upset because the New 52 was both low in terms of quality and invalidated the comics that they loved from the past several decades of DC Comics.

You can't really invalidate a good story. Perez and Wolfman's reinvention of the Titans will always stand as one of the best runs of any comic. But whether because of the reboot, or simply the passage of time, their book is a thing of the past. The original team left, were replaced with lesser talent, and got canceled. And they haven't been back together since. It doesn't matter that it got retconned to me, because all DC has done for years is some copy of the original group of sidekicks, and that is what matters to me. What they are doing now.

And right now things are pretty good.

Of course, I have been plenty upset over Marvel's mismanagement of their own IP. But even so, I only stopped reading their books after realizing they were consistently ending up at the bottom of my "to read" stack. That was a dark day.

So it's not like I just gave up.

But here's the thing about comics. If you stop reading, whether it's because you can't afford it anymore or on principle, it's really really hard not to take what happens in your absence with a super critical eye. Anything you actually read is fine, but the rest is kind of outrageous and ridiculous. It is so easy to ridicule the changes writers make. Especially if you have guns to stick to. Artwork, as well, is easy to criticize. Believe it or not, you have to read the story to know for certain how effective the art is. You can get an overall aesthetic sense at a glance, but the acid test is to read.

And the reality is, if you haven't kept up then you're not fit to judge. And this is a problem, because who can really afford to keep up with every title?

I'm not accusing anyone of this. It's just food for thought. Ask yourself: When you say you hate the new 52, is it because you've kept up with a majority of books and judged based on that, or is it just on principle? Because even though the two are not truly mutually exclusive, it's often a question of either or.

I'm not asking, though. Just something to think about. But I will admit to being guilty of this, and quite recently. One might even say still.

[Dataweaver]

I generally don't criticize the New 52 because I dropped out of comics almost entirely in October 2011. It wasn't because of the comics per se; in fact, the primary reason for it was due to a sudden loss of income that I am only now fully recovering from. But the New 52 provided a convenient jumping-off point for me. What brought me back was Multiversity, followed by Convergence and then DCU Rebirth. That, combined with my gradually improving financial health.

That said: as I come back, I've been seeing what Rebirth has been bringing back, which is giving me a taste of what New 52 was lacking. And with that in mind, I'm glad the New 52 is over.

And make no mistake: it is over. The single biggest change that it imposed, the five-year timeline, is gone.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't know. It's all how you look at it. Superman's book has been incredibly mediocre since he married Lois. Once again it's all opinion but I'm sure a lot of people agree with this. Wally became the Flash. The journey was over. His book was rotten for a long while before the New 52. Most of this **** got stale. It needed a kick in the ass.

Even taking that as true, new directions do not necessitate hitting the reboot button and tearing down the entire universe that generations of writers and artists spent decades building. It just requires new writers. Superman's Rebirth run has been the most acclaimed a Superman title has been since 2010 at least. And what's important about that is that it very much uses the Post-Crisis status quo of Superman being married to Lois and recognizes the development and history that was built up in the Pre-Flashpoint era. And that's informative of how DC should have dealt with the issues of the line immediately before Flashpoint. If the marriage was feeling stale, then either have a story center around problems in the marriage or introduce a new element, like say, a son.

Of course, there's still far from any consensus that the DCU was so stale that DC needed to do a reboot anyway. I don't see how Wally becoming the Flash means his story is over. That'd seem to most as a brand new story just beginning.

There are points in stories where you can't develop any further.

Not really when you have a universe where the mission statement is simply "heroes fighting villains." Superman's life could develop to the point where he has grandkids with Lois and they're in a retirement home together and it wouldn't really matter as long as he's still in fighting shape to go out and kick butt. Not saying that would ever happen, but it just goes to show that you can always tell stories regardless of where the character is in their life.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You can't really invalidate a good story. Perez and Wolfman's reinvention of the Titans will always stand as one of the best runs of any comic. But whether because of the reboot, or simply the passage of time, their book is a thing of the past. The original team left, were replaced with lesser talent, and got canceled. And they haven't been back together since. It doesn't matter that it got retconned to me, because all DC has done for years is some copy of the original group of sidekicks, and that is what matters to me. What they are doing now.

The point is that the current title is in fact missing something because they really can't play on classic Titans elements and dynamics as long as that run where all of those developments took place is out of canon. They can't play on Beast Boy and Cyborg's classic friendship as long they're strangers to each other. They cant even really play on Dick and Starfire's romance properly because, again, the run during which they originally met and fell in love is out of continuity and, without it, readers really have no idea how they know each other.

And here's the thing: those elements are what fans love about the Titans franchise. Its what they want. And retaining those elements and continuity doesn't preclude the telling of new stories with these characters. In fact, it facilitates the telling of new stories.

[Dataweaver]

Not really when you have a universe where the mission statement is simply "heroes fighting villains." Superman's life could develop to the point where he has grandkids with Lois and they're in a retirement home together and it wouldn't really matter as long as he's still in fighting shape to go out and kick butt. Not saying that would ever happen,

*cough*Kal-L*cough*

[Darkseid Is]

Even taking that as true, new directions do not necessitate hitting the reboot button and tearing down the entire universe that generations of writers and artists spent decades building. It just requires new writers. Superman's Rebirth run has been the most acclaimed a Superman title has been since 2010 at least. And what's important about that is that it very much uses the Post-Crisis status quo of Superman being married to Lois and recognizes the development and history that was built up in the Pre-Flashpoint era. And that's informative of how DC should have dealt with the issues of the line immediately before Flashpoint. If the marriage was feeling stale, then either have a story center around problems in the marriage or introduce a new element, like say, a son.

Of course, there's still far from any consensus that the DCU was so stale that DC needed to do a reboot anyway. I don't see how Wally becoming the Flash means his story is over. That'd seem to most as a brand new story just beginning.



Not really when you have a universe where the mission statement is simply "heroes fighting villains." Superman's life could develop to the point where he has grandkids with Lois and they're in a retirement home together and it wouldn't really matter as long as he's still in fighting shape to go out and kick butt. Not saying that would ever happen, but it just goes to show that you can always tell stories regardless of where the character is in their life.

But it was never just heroes fighting villains. That's like dessert. The real meat and potatoes is the drama that keeps people coming back. Nursing home Clark and Lois seems incredibly boring to me, even if he still fights villains.

I also don't think the creators ever looked at comics as building a universe. I think they looked at is telling good stories.

[thetrellan]

I generally don't criticize the New 52 because I dropped out of comics almost entirely in October 2011. It wasn't because of the comics per se; in fact, the primary reason for it was due to a sudden loss of income that I am only now fully recovering from. But the New 52 provided a convenient jumping-off point for me. What brought me back was Multiversity, followed by Convergence and then DCU Rebirth. That, combined with my gradually improving financial health.

That said: as I come back, I've been seeing what Rebirth has been bringing back, which is giving me a taste of what New 52 was lacking. And with that in mind, I'm glad the New 52 is over. And make no mistake: it is over. The single biggest change that it imposed, the five-year timeline, is gone.

On that point, you have convinced me. And congratulations for being a shrewd reader. Multiversity sounds like the perfect jumping on point. Well done.

The point is that the current title is in fact missing something because they really can't play on classic Titans elements and dynamics as long as that run where all of those developments took place is out of canon. They can't play on Beast Boy and Cyborg's classic friendship as long they're strangers to each other. They cant even really play on Dick and Starfire's romance properly because, again, the run during which they originally met and fell in love is out of continuity and, without it, readers really have no idea how they know each other.

And here's the thing: those elements are what fans love about the Titans franchise. Its what they want. And retaining those elements and continuity doesn't preclude the telling of new stories with these characters. In fact, it facilitates the telling of new stories.

As a fan of both TNTT and Perez, I have to say the occasional reference or guest appearance isn't even close to sufficient. At this point, or the point of Flashpoint, they had become too few and far between to hold my interest. Breaking up the band meant Kory and Dick couldn't be together, because only in TNTT did their worlds fit. Imagine Kory as a regular on Batman. Because I can't.

But I digress. Allow me to digress some more.

This stuff is not only in the past, it's in a dead past. A past that held no relevance anymore.

DC wasn't keeping the spirit of that team alive. They didn't devote creative resources to it, or see the group into new phases of evolution. Instead they replaced the group entire, which doesn't help the Titans per se. It just creates something else. And ever since then, they have been fabricating copies of the original.

The current Titans at least is the real deal, even if it still falls short their true greatness.

As for the Teen Titans, I really question DC's wisdom in keeping up with the sidekick club. Damian is annoyingly one dimensional, and the way DC has been using a simplistic anime look to target a new generation of kids is, frankly, offensive. It does neither the kids nor anime justice. I suspect this is about keeping the rights to the name active. If so, it would be better to do something more like the group Ray Palmer once led, and get the real Titans back together.

If they do that, then the New 52 has served a great purpose by setting the stage for making it fresh and new.

In other words, I agree with you. The current team is but a reminder of how great it could, and should, be. It's time for Kory, Raven, Gar, and Vic to return to the fold. And bring the new water breather along, if possible. Maybe start an academy for Bruce to force Damian into.

Wow. Looking back, it doesn't look much like digression to me. Usually I'm all over the place.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But it was never just heroes fighting villains. That's like dessert. The real meat and potatoes is the drama that keeps people coming back. Nursing home Clark and Lois seems incredibly boring to me, even if he still fights villains.

I also don't think the creators ever looked at comics as building a universe. I think they looked at is telling good stories.

But, again, there was no indication that the marriage wasn't a source of drama and new story developments. In fact, them bringing the marriage and romance as originally developed back into continuity pretty much proves that there was still much to explore with the marriage. That applies also to the way things were across the DCU before Flashpoint.

[thetrellan]

But, again, there was no indication that the marriage wasn't a source of drama and new story developments. In fact, them bringing the marriage and romance as originally developed back into continuity pretty much proves that there was still much to explore with the marriage. That applies also to the way things were across the DCU before Flashpoint.

It only proves their ability to bend to the will of the masses. And that they aren't very original, introducing the son of Superman and Lois just because Batman had a son.

There is drama to be had in their marriage. But I don't think DC can or will take advantage of it, any more than Gerry Conway did of the Gwen/Peter romance. The true strength of their marriage remains the fact that it's what fans are used to, not that there is anything special about the couple. This is the norm for comics in general, and DC in particular. Fans bitch and moan at changes because they are changes, not because what was changed was particularly vital. Yes, some of it was. But none of the marriages ever pulled at my heart strings. Not Hal and Carol, not Barry and Iris, and certainly not Lois and Clark. That's why they gave Diana and Clark a shot.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Imagine Kory as a regular on Batman. Because I can't.

But I digress. Allow me to digress some more.

This stuff is not only in the past, it's in a dead past. A past that held no relevance anymore.

DC wasn't keeping the spirit of that team alive. They didn't devote creative resources to it, or see the group into new phases of evolution. Instead they replaced the group entire, which doesn't help the Titans per se. It just creates something else. And ever since then, they have been fabricating copies of the original.

The current Titans at least is the real deal, even if it still falls short their true greatness.

That's kind of the point. People are upset because the NTT stuff is not part of the Titans's past anymore and its been made irrelevant. And you may believe that simply breaking up the team was enough to render that stuff not imprtant, but NTT has had an influence on the Titans franchise ever since the original run. So, whether that meant one of the original NTT being on the team, or fighting one of their villains, or a legacy character like Ravager being on the team, Roy Harper having a daughter with Cheshire, a character Wolfman and Perez created, or even Deathstroke being the one to bring together the Brightest Day Titans, that's nigh 30 years of continuous influence on the franchise.

So, it really is up for debate whether or not these are the real deal Titans when they cant even remember their most famous adventures together as a group.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It only proves their ability to bend to the will of the masses. And that they aren't very original, introducing the son of Superman and Lois just because Batman had a son.

There is drama to be had in their marriage. But I don't think DC can or will take advantage of it, any more than Gerry Conway did of the Gwen/Peter romance. The true strength of their marriage remains the fact that it's what fans are used to, not that there is anything special about the couple. This is the norm for comics in general, and DC in particular. Fans bitch and moan at changes because they are changes, not because what was changed was particularly vital. Yes, some of it was. But none of the marriages ever pulled at my heart strings. Not Hal and Carol, not Barry and Iris, and certainly not Lois and Clark. That's why they gave Diana and Clark a shot.

Uh, Clark and Lois are always going to end up together. That's just a simple fact. Its one of the most classic pairings in not just comics, but in pop culture in general. So, its pretty pointless to pretend that they won't. And heres the thing: DC already developed their relationship...20 years ago. So, you can't really blame fans for not wanting to retread the same story over again when the conclusion is inevitable.

And I don't think DC is somehow incapable at exploring their marriage further. The current creative team seems to be doing a fine job of that actually. And giving them a son wasn't a bad way to do it. Batman doesn't have a monopoly on having a child. He's not the only superhero in comics to have a child and he isn't even the only one in the DCU.

Plus, I wouldnt tout Diana and Clark out as an example of anything, really. That pairing proved to be so untenable in the long run that its been since scrubbed from continuity entirely.

[Darkseid Is]

The influence of great stuff will be there no matter what continuity anything belongs to. I didn't read the New 52 Titans book so maybe they just dropped the ball and tried to be too different where you can't even recognize anything. A great Superman story or a great Batman story or whatever can exist in any continuity if they're written as Superman and Batman. Just using them as examples. I'm not defending everything that happened in the New 52, like I said I haven't read Teen Titans and it may very well just suck. Doesn't matter if they remember their past adventures. All those great Wolfman/Perez stories never happened either, it's all made up bullshit.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The influence of great stuff will be there no matter what continuity anything belongs to. I didn't read the New 52 Titans book so maybe they just dropped the ball and tried to be too different where you can't even recognize anything. A great Superman story or a great Batman story or whatever can exist in any continuity if they're written as Superman and Batman. Just using them as examples. I'm not defending everything that happened in the New 52, like I said I haven't read Teen Titans and it may very well just suck. Doesn't matter if they remember their past adventures. All those great Wolfman/Perez stories never happened either, it's all made up bullshit.

It kinda does. Because there is a rather large matter of context and how characters relate to one another. I'm gonna go back to the Dick/Kory example to demonstrate this. Even during the height of the New 52, they kept showing Dick and Kory in a romantic sense and said that they had been a couple in the past. And of course they would, because that romance is a classic part of the Titans franchise and its something that fans of the franchise expect and appreciate. However, there's a big problem with showing that relationship in the New 52: the simple fact that we didn't even know how in the heck they even knew each other because the NTT run "never happened." How did Dick and Kory even meet? What was their relationship like? Was it serious or just a fling? How did said relationship even start and how did it end? These are all things we knew before Flashpoint because we could simply point to the NTT run and say "this here contains the story of Dick and Kory's relationship." However, in the New 52, that wasn't an option anymore....and yet they still kept referring to their relationship as if it was a thing when they technically should have been strangers. All we got was a vague acknowledgment of Kory having apparently been on a "Titans-like" team (not even necessarily the Titans) somewhere, somehow, somewhen. Nothing more.

It all boils down to this: before Flashpoint, readers felt as if they knew these characters and connected with them because they'd been with them through their adventures. After Flashpoint, that was no longer the case for most fans.

[thetrellan]

Uh, Clark and Lois are always going to end up together. That's just a simple fact. Its one of the most classic pairings in not just comics, but in pop culture in general. So, its pretty pointless to pretend that they won't. And heres the thing: DC already developed their relationship...20 years ago. So, you can't really blame fans for not wanting to retread the same story over again when the conclusion is inevitable.

And I don't think DC is somehow incapable at exploring their marriage further. The current creative team seems to be doing a fine job of that actually. And giving them a son wasn't a bad way to do it. Batman doesn't have a monopoly on having a child. He's not the only superhero in comics to have a child and he isn't even the only one in the DCU.

Plus, I wouldn't tout Diana and Clark out as an example of anything, really. That pairing proved to be so untenable in the long run that its been since scrubbed from continuity entirely.

That's just them bending to that knee-jerk reaction of the masses again. And I'm not 'touting' the WW/SM thing. It's just an example of writers trying something different.

I've see this before. Fans saying that a marriage was explored, developed already. I know that. And I'm saying that reading about them dating is meaningless unless if you don't really get why they are together. When I watched Smallville, I definitely got the romance between Lana and Lois. So much so that in that continuity I feel Lois was wrong for him. His true love is Lana, and always will be.

That's how we should feel about Lois. But we don't. We weren't heartbroken when he dated Diana instead. No, we were pissed.

That's the wrong reaction. It says, at least to my mind, that something is missing. There should be true romance here. It would give Superman so much more substance.

Of course I know Clark and Lois will end up together. I don't object to that at all. What I object to is giving in to the protestations of fans, when they could just use what they have established to give true meaning to the relationship they will always be headed toward. The fact that fans don't like it only shows fans lack patience. This was a chance to explore the pair drifting first away, then together, and maybe seeing what they really mean to each other.

By giving in to popular demand like this, DC has already proven incapable of doing so. Any attempt will be thwarted by fans who think they know best, but really don't.

When I pick up a novel to read, I don't judge it bad after 2 pages just because it's not what I expect.

But the Wonder Woman pairing was never going to work, I know. Not when WW's own writer seemed to be ignoring it completely. Clearly it was an editorial directive, and not part of the larger story that needed to be told. In retrospect, that's obvious. Fandom had a fit from the word go, though. If in fact there was something they were getting to? Well, we'd never know it, would we? Because we sent writers scrambling to make it 'right'.

That's kind of the point. People are upset because the NTT stuff is not part of the Titans's past anymore and its been made irrelevant. And you may believe that simply breaking up the team was enough to render that stuff not imprtant, but NTT has had an influence on the Titans franchise ever since the original run. So, whether that meant one of the original NTT being on the team, or fighting one of their villains, or a legacy character like Ravager being on the team, Roy Harper having a daughter with Cheshire, a character Wolfman and Perez created, or even Deathstroke being the one to bring together the Brightest Day Titans, that's nigh 30 years of continuous influence on the franchise.

So, it really is up for debate whether or not these are the real deal Titans when they cant even remember their most famous adventures together as a group.

You haven't been reading it, have you? They all do remember it all. Electrostatic transmission of memory at Wally's touch. He hasn't given Kory and the rest that touch, but I expect that's only because Editorial doesn't want to break up the current sidekick club.