The return of the Mighty Mighty New 52 Discussion thread

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's just them bending to that knee-jerk reaction of the masses again. And I'm not 'touting' the WW/SM thing. It's just an example of writers trying something different.

I've see this before. Fans saying that a marriage was explored, developed already. I know that. And I'm saying that reading about them dating is meaningless unless if you don't really get why they are together. When I watched Smallville, I definitely got the romance between Lana and Lois. So much so that in that continuity I feel Lois was wrong for him. His true love is Lana, and always will be.

That's how we should feel about Lois. But we don't. We weren't heartbroken when he dated Diana instead. No, we were pissed.

That's the wrong reaction. It says, at least to my mind, that something is missing. There should be true romance here. It would give Superman so much more substance.

Of course I know Clark and Lois will end up together. I don't object to that at all. What I object to is giving in to the protestations of fans, when they could just use what they have established to give true meaning to the relationship they will always be headed toward. The fact that fans don't like it only shows fans lack patience. This was a chance to explore the pair drifting first away, then together, and maybe seeing what they really mean to each other.

By giving in to popular demand like this, DC has already proven incapable of doing so. Any attempt will be thwarted by fans who think they know best, but really don't.

When I pick up a novel to read, I don't judge it bad after 2 pages just because it's not what I expect.

But the Wonder Woman pairing was never going to work, I know. Not when WW's own writer seemed to be ignoring it completely. Clearly it was an editorial directive, and not part of the larger story that needed to be told. In retrospect, that's obvious. Fandom had a fit from the word go, though. If in fact there was something they were getting to? Well, we'd never know it, would we? Because we sent writers scrambling to make it 'right'.

Well, completely ignoring the Smallville part, because I think the show runners of that series made it pretty clear that Lana was not Clark's true love, there's a lot wrong with the rest of what you said here.

Firstly, DC is a business. They are in the business of selling comics, which tends to require them to not alienate their fanbase. So, yes, they should absolutely take fans' opinions and wants into consideration. That's not them "caving" or "giving in" or whatever. That's them actually listening to their fans and actually giving them what they want. That's what a business like DC is supposed to do.

Secondly, again, its not a matter of fans being impatient. Its a matter of them not wanting to rehash developments that already took place long ago. Again, we saw the Clark/Lois relationship unfold and culminate in marriage...twenty years ago. Not wanting to rehash something that we all read is not being "impatient," that's simply a want to move forward as opposed to moving backward in terms of character development. Lois and Clark are married and have been married for a long time. We don't need to rehash the telling of their romance again simply because some weren't around the first time they got married. I was 5 when they got married the first time, and read the story of their courtship and marriage much later on. People are able to catch up, even if they weren't there.

And lastly, did you even read their relationship first time around? Because they already went through all of what you're asking for. The got together, got engaged, he died, she grieved, he came back, they experienced problems, drifted apart, she went away, they got engaged again, and then ultimately got married. So, in short, they've done that dance before of drifting apart and coming back together out of their love for one another. We don't need to rehash it. All we need to do is move forward with their marriage.

You haven't been reading it, have you? They all do remember it all. Electrostatic transmission of memory at Wally's touch. He hasn't given Kory and the rest that touch, but I expect that's only because Editorial doesn't want to break up the current sidekick club.

Uh, yeah, I did read it, actually. You do know that the memories that Wally has brought back with him aren't the actual Titans continuity that Wolfman, Perez, and Grummet spent many years crafting, right? Instead, its that Frankensteined, Titans Hunt continuity that Abnett and editorial cooked up. He might remember NTT, but the rest of them do not. Now, I hope that when Wally sees Kory, Raven, and Vic again, he'll somehow re-instil in them the memory of them being together on the Titans, but it might require a change of the editorial guard. For now, they do not remember their most famous adventures together (aka the Wolfman New Teen Titans run), which sort of puts their "real Titans" status into question.

[Darkseid Is]

I don't know if it's irony or what you would call it but referring to Wolfman and Perez and how they finely crafted this continuity when they go and essentially wipe most of these stories off the map with Crisis. Maybe not their own stories but a lot of other people's who spent years crafting this continuity. We were joking around earlier but the next step for Superman is actually retirement home Superman and I don't think people want to read that. We're supposed to have the same continuity from 1938?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't know if it's irony or what you would call it but referring to Wolfman and Perez and how they finely crafted this continuity when they go and essentially wipe most of these stories off the map with Crisis. Maybe not their own stories but a lot of other people's who spent years crafting this continuity.

Well, I've said this before and I'll say it again: not only was Crisis not as radical in regards to wiping away continuity as the New 52, but much of the damage wrought as a result of Crisis had already been reversed by the time Flashpoint rolled along anyway. Ever read Meltzer's JLA from after Infinite Crisis? It basically established that all of the JLA continuity that was wiped out with Crisis (including Superman and Wonder Woman's roles as a founders and their history with the League) was restored.

We were joking around earlier but the next step for Superman is actually retirement home Superman and I don't think people want to read that.

We were joking before, as I don't see DC aging up Clark to that point any time soon. They'll likely just do what they always do. Keep him around the same age he is now for the rest of forever, like pretty much every comic book superhero at DC or Marvel. However, even so, I'd still say that Superman in his old age with Lois would be better than something like New 52 Superman, which was like a 90s fever dream.

We're supposed to have the same continuity from 1938?

Well, if Marvel can have a continuity that stretches all the way back to 1941, from the very first Captain America comics, then I don't see why its such a stretch for DC.

[Darkseid Is]

I mean we're talking about 1938 - 1985. There's a lot of stuff that got dumped. All those Bill Finger/Bob Kane Batman stories are gone. All the Seigel and Shuster Superman stories are gone. Isn't their work a lot more important in the long run than Perez and Wolfman's Teen Titans?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I mean we're talking about 1938 - 1985. There's a lot of stuff that got dumped. All those Bill Finger/Bob Kane Batman stories are gone. All the Seigel and Shuster Superman stories are gone. Isn't their work a lot more important in the long run than Perez and Wolfman's Teen Titans?

Well, firstly, its not more important at all because, like I said, the Wolfman/Perez NTT essentially defined the Teen Titans franchise and when people think "Teen Titans", the Wolfman/Perez characters are usually the ones that pop up in their head.

Secondly, the Siegel and Shuster and Kane and Finger stories of the Golden Age weren't technically erased in 1985. They were established to have been the Earth 2 Superman and Batman, separate characters from the main Earth Superman and Batman, in 1956. Earth 2 Superman, however, starred in Crisis and then had his story come to an end in Infinite Crisis. So, technically, he wasn't erased at all until Flashpoint came along.

And thirdly, actually, there was a lot of flashing back to Golden Age elements and stories before Flashpoint, so again, that's another example of something that came back into canon only to be erased by Flashpoint.

[Darkseid Is]

Well, firstly, its not more important at all because, like I said, the Wolfman/Perez NTT essentially defined the Teen Titans franchise and when people think "Teen Titans", the Wolfman/Perez characters are usually the ones that pop up in their head.

Secondly, the Siegel and Shuster and Kane and Finger stories of the Golden Age weren't technically erased in 1985. They were established to have been the Earth 2 Superman and Batman, separate characters from the main Earth Superman and Batman, in 1956. Earth 2 Superman, however, starred in Crisis and then had his story come to an end in Infinite Crisis. So, technically, he wasn't erased at all until Flashpoint came along.

And thirdly, actually, there was a lot of flashing back to Golden Age elements and stories before Flashpoint, so again, that's another example of something that came back into canon only to be erased by Flashpoint.

At the time of Crisis Earth 2 was wiped out. The same thing are happening now with bringing stuff back. I don't see how someone could get upset about New 52 when they're constantly erasing stuff and bringing stuff back. If they think it should come back... it comes back! If they want to get rid of it... they get rid of it! It's all constantly changing nonsense.

[Buried Alien]

Well, if Marvel can have a continuity that stretches all the way back to 1941, from the very first Captain America comics...

Nah...Marvel just handwaves its continuity and creates the illusion that it's one unbroken stream. The Fantastic Four, the Hulk, and Iron Man all had origins tied into the early Cold War era. None of that applies anymore.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ZoomZolomonZoom]

Nah...Marvel just handwaves its continuity and creates the illusion that it's one unbroken stream. The Fantastic Four, and Hulk, and Iron Man all had origins tied into the early Cold War era. None of that applies anymore.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yes, you're entirely right. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the Marvel continuity from the 1940s to today is completely intact and spotless. When (like you said) origins and stories have been retconned, ignored, changed, etc, more times than one can shake a stick at. DC just does there's all at once. Marvel spreads them out and waits for whenever need be.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

At the time of Crisis Earth 2 was wiped out. The same thing are happening now with bringing stuff back. I don't see how someone could get upset about New 52 when they're constantly erasing stuff and bringing stuff back. If they think it should come back... it comes back! If they want to get rid of it... they get rid of it! It's all constantly changing nonsense.

And then Infinite Crisis came along and said, "nah, Earth 2 and the multiverse was a thing." Heck, we saw Earth 2 Superman, Superboy Prime, Earth 2 Wonder Woman, and Earth 2 Lois Lane all come back; Power Girl regained her memories of Earth 2; and several characters that had lost their Silver Age adventures during Crisis regain said adventures, like the Doom Patrol. People like to gloss over the whole fact that Infinite Crisis kind of created an almost all-inclusive continuity for the DCU. Wonder Woman's Silver and Bronze Age adventures? They were back. The Silver and Bronze Age history of the JLA? That was back too. Kathy and Bette Kane's time as Batwoman and Batgirl? Yup, that was all back too. And even before IC, Batman comics still incorporated Pre-Crisis material all the time, even if that was as simple as flashing back to GA Batman or the O'Neil/Adams run. We even saw during Superman Reborn that Pre-Flashpoint, Superman remembered at least part of his Silver Age adventures.

And that's how the DCU was for several years until somebody got the bright idea to wipe away not just the Silver and Bronze Age histories/elements of the characters but the entire modern age from the record books. I don't understand how they could have assumed that telling their entire fanbase that the stories they'd invested in for a good chunk of their lives were suddenly null and void would be a good idea.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Nah...Marvel just handwaves its continuity and creates the illusion that it's one unbroken stream. The Fantastic Four, the Hulk, and Iron Man all had origins tied into the early Cold War era. None of that applies anymore.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's not remotely the same. The modifications that accompany a sliding timeline are so completely minor in comparison the massive alterations to continuity that DC engaged in in the N52 and even during Crisis. Firstly, Bruce Banner was still caught up in a experimental bomb test and that's how the Hulk was created. That origin never went away. Tony Stark was still abducted by radicals led by Wong-Chu and had to escape unless I missed something.

Saying things like Flash Thompson went off to fight in Iraq as opposed to Vietnam don't really impact the continuity all that much because Flash Thompson still joined the military and went off to war as part of his character arc. He is still the same Flash who tormented Peter throughout his high school years. Regardless of whether Reed and Ben's status of WWII veterans was altered and they're now veterans of another war, if you pick up a copy of Fantastic Four #5 from 1962, that is still the applicable story of how they first encountered Victor as Dr. Doom. Likewise, Sue Storm still became Malice as she did back during Byrne's run in the 80s. None of that stuff has been rendered null. So the argument that Marvel's continuity is somehow as muddied as DC's just doesn't really hold up.

[Darkseid Is]

And then Infinite Crisis came along and said, "nah, Earth 2 and the multiverse was a thing." Heck, we saw Earth 2 Superman, Superboy Prime, Earth 2 Wonder Woman, and Earth 2 Lois Lane all come back; Power Girl regained her memories of Earth 2; and several characters that had lost their Silver Age adventures during Crisis regain said adventures, like the Doom Patrol. People like to gloss over the whole fact that Infinite Crisis kind of created an almost all-inclusive continuity for the DCU. Wonder Woman's Silver and Bronze Age adventures? They were back. The Silver and Bronze Age history of the JLA? That was back too. Kathy and Bette Kane's time as Batwoman and Batgirl? Yup, that was all back too. And even before IC, Batman comics still incorporated Pre-Crisis material all the time, even if that was as simple as flashing back to GA Batman or the O'Neil/Adams run. We even saw during Superman Reborn that Pre-Flashpoint, Superman remembered at least part of his Silver Age adventures.

And that's how the DCU was for several years until somebody got the bright idea to wipe away not just the Silver and Bronze Age histories/elements of the characters but the entire modern age from the record books. I don't understand how they could have assumed that telling their entire fanbase that the stories they'd invested in for a good chunk of their lives were suddenly null and void would be a good idea.

Infinite Crisis was 20 years after Crisis on Infinite Earths. I'm assuming you were upset about Crisis for 20 years?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Infinite Crisis was 20 years after Crisis on Infinite Earths. I'm assuming you were upset about Crisis for 20 years?

I'm talking about the DCU as it existed before Flashpoint, which incorporated DC continuity going back to the beginning. Just because it took DC 20 years to learn its mistake last time doesn't mean that I should support their repeating that mistake. Also, I wasn't even around for the first Crisis, but even I recognized that it was a huge mistake.

[Darkseid Is]

We could do this forever. And we can turn any thread into this. It's our superpowers. We're like bizarro Wonder Twins when it comes to this **** haha. I still say, I would be really interested in DC starting from scratch. Now that would never happen...

[Dataweaver]

Starting from scratch, no. But there's Earth One…

[Darkseid Is]

Starting from scratch, no. But there's Earth One…

Part of what I like about it is the chaos that ensues