Madame Web or The Marvels

[thwhtGuardian]

Yeah, to me that would be just as cringe-worthy. The weird buzzword hashtag self aware referential humor is just not my thing, and I feel like those fall into that bracket, even with how brief they are.

It's not really a hash tag kind of thing though, just a light motivational moment.

[exile001]

See this is precisely what I mean.
Every comment trying to the Marvels is worse than Madame Web has gone out of its way to keep from speaking about the things that actually matter, like how the story handled, how the characters are portrayed.

Okay, I'll bite:

The story in Marvels was the same "villains destroy place we have never seen before and therefore give no fucks about" story we've seen time and time again in Marvel (sometimes it's place on Earth leading to New York). Eventually it gets to Earth, the one place we do care about, where previously unstoppable villain is defeated through pretty easily through the power of working together. Which we've seen a million times. For some reason none of Earth' other heroes show up.

When said villain is destroying places we don't give a **** about, the heroes seemingly stop caring the second they lose, which again gives no weight to those actions. It's just killing time before it all comes to Earth.

Any lore we're given about a place is effectively meaningless (and thus wasting time) if that place is destroyed never to be mentioned again.

The villain is destroying populated worlds to restore Hala, when she could easily have picked uninhabited worlds and saved all the problem. The actress playing the villain was appalling. As usual with marvel, she got a tiny amount of screen time and wafer thin character and she still managed to absolutely suck.

The ramifications of Cpt Marvel effectively destroying Hala, and killing untold numbers of Kree, are at bet pathetically minimal. She's got a sad on and feels a bit guilty. It isn't explored with any depth, and she's not held accountable for committing genocide and being the sole reason for the following destruction. She redeems herself by saving the planet but it doesn't bring back those who died.

The core conceit of each character is messy and their conflicts largely boiled down to "I'm pissy with you for reasons" which aren't given real depth, just a reason for friction. Except Ms Marvel, who is mostly a delight, but at points comes across like her overly familiar attitude is intentionally obnoxious. Any and all conflict could have been resolved by the characters talking like people. It's all glossed over, and punctuated by a shouting match that makes everyone more pissy but clears the air.

Their character dynamics don't really grow on screen (outside of fighting together), they broadly happen between scenes or are shifted in a sudden burst. It doesn't flow or feel dynamic, they just have defined states that are shifted a couple of times.

Monica Rambeau's character was criminally underserved and often felt like a third wheel, which was particularly lame as she was the one who "died." We learn so little about her or her life outside the lens of how she feels about Carol (and her mother, as it relates to Carol). Carol seems to get over that real quick, just is a bit sad.

If it weren't for Iman Vellani's incredible charisma as Kamala Khan (and her family) the film would have been unwatchably dull as well as infuriating.

Nick Fury is handled really poorly, often the butt of a joke.

There was way more I felt at the time but, honestly, I've not thought about it since and likely never will again.

I'm sure there was a ton of additional scenes shot and cut/rearranged, but this is the film we got so we can only judge it on that. It was a very poorly crafted movie that frankly Disney should be embarrassed about releasing in the state it was in.

Which is a real shame, as I was very excited for the idea of their switching places (really fun at the start) and watching them go from strangers to friends and a force to be reckoned with.

[PhantomBoom]

Okay, I'll bite:

The story in Marvels was the same "villains destroy place we have never seen before and therefore give no fucks about" story we've seen time and time again in Marvel (sometimes it's place on Earth leading to New York). Eventually it gets to Earth, the one place we do care about, where previously unstoppable villain is defeated through pretty easily through the power of working together. Which we've seen a million times. For some reason none of Earth' other heroes show up.

When said villain is destroying places we don't give a **** about, the heroes seemingly stop caring the second they lose, which again gives no weight to those actions. It's just killing time before it all comes to Earth.

Any lore we're given about a place is effectively meaningless (and thus wasting time) if that place is destroyed never to be mentioned again.

The villain is destroying populated worlds to restore Hala, when she could easily have picked uninhabited worlds and saved all the problem. The actress playing the villain was appalling. As usual with marvel, she got a tiny amount of screen time and wafer thin character and she still managed to absolutely suck.

The ramifications of Cpt Marvel effectively destroying Hala, and killing untold numbers of Kree, are at bet pathetically minimal. She's got a sad on and feels a bit guilty. It isn't explored with any depth, and she's not held accountable for committing genocide and being the sole reason for the following destruction. She redeems herself by saving the planet but it doesn't bring back those who died.

The core conceit of each character is messy and their conflicts largely boiled down to "I'm pissy with you for reasons" which aren't given real depth, just a reason for friction. Except Ms Marvel, who is mostly a delight, but at points comes across like her overly familiar attitude is intentionally obnoxious. Any and all conflict could have been resolved by the characters talking like people. It's all glossed over, and punctuated by a shouting match that makes everyone more pissy but clears the air.

Their character dynamics don't really grow on screen (outside of fighting together), they broadly happen between scenes or are shifted in a sudden burst. It doesn't flow or feel dynamic, they just have defined states that are shifted a couple of times.

Monica Rambeau's character was criminally underserved and often felt like a third wheel, which was particularly lame as she was the one who "died." We learn so little about her or her life outside the lens of how she feels about Carol (and her mother, as it relates to Carol). Carol seems to get over that real quick, just is a bit sad.

If it weren't for Iman Vellani's incredible charisma as Kamala Khan (and her family) the film would have been unwatchably dull as well as infuriating.

Nick Fury is handled really poorly, often the butt of a joke.

There was way more I felt at the time but, honestly, I've not thought about it since and likely never will again.

I'm sure there was a ton of additional scenes shot and cut/rearranged, but this is the film we got so we can only judge it on that. It was a very poorly crafted movie that frankly Disney should be embarrassed about releasing in the state it was in.

Which is a real shame, as I was very excited for the idea of their switching places (really fun at the start) and watching them go from strangers to friends and a force to be reckoned with.

This is just exactly what I mean despite typing this whole wall of text, a lot of this just amounted to you just calling things about the movie bad with little no elaboration why, getting details wrong, flat out not understanding the plot, and none of this actually explained what about Madame Web was supposedly better.

For one yes the villains plot involved destroying worlds the heroes don't know the full lore and history of, there's not any reason why this is a problem, we don't need to know everything about Aldana or the Skrull colony to know how awful it is that the Kree are destroying worlds and killing innocent people.

We don't know anything about Alderan in the original Star Wars movies, that didn't make it any less heinous and wrong when the Empire used the Death Star to destroy it.

Now beyond that Dar-Benn was intentionally going to planets Carol saved and meant something to her as a way of spiting Carol as a sort of punishment because of what happened to Hala it is quite literally said out loud why she's doing what she's doing, and her actress was fine, you can not like the character or her motivations, but it is completely unjustifiable to insult the actress like that.

And as we see the ramifications for Carol's actions are literally the plot of the movie, are motivation of the antagonist, saying she just got sad and that's the end of it is a disingenuous and reductive way of putting things.

And Carol and Monica's problems aren't just "they're mad at each other" for reasons, Monica feels abandoned because Carol hadn't been back to Earth and seen in her years before Thanos attacked this isn't just glossed over its the entire basis of their relationship during the movie.

And one of the major things about Monica's character is her relationship with Carol and her trauma over her mother, because they're the two people who raised her, it'd be weirder if these things weren't major parts of her character.

And then after that Monica didn't die, she was trapped in another reality, and Carol didn't just get over it, the movie ends with her and Kamala resolving to find and bring her back.

Also no Nick Fury is not the butt of any joke, he makes a few, but he's certainly never played as being punchline.


You can not like the movie that's fine, but frankly you seem rather focused on ignoring or downplaying any positives the movie has while also exaggerating or just flat out making up negatives about it.

[James Cameron]

It's not really a hash tag kind of thing though, just a light motivational moment.

Black girl magic is totally a hashtag. I just don't like witty asides and important "motivational" dialogue reduced to buzzwords/catchphrases, it undermines the potential emotional development of the characters and scenes. And I only say this because Marvel does this all the time in every movie, not trying to hyperfocus on the Marvels

[j9ac9k]

If it weren't for Iman Vellani's incredible charisma as Kamala Khan (and her family) the film would have been unwatchably dull as well as infuriating.

Yeah, I'm trying to imagine the movie without her and it would've been a drag. Although, I'm sure they would have done something else to give the film its levity. They def could have played up the Monica/Carol tension as more outright hostile in a buddy cop/bickering kindof way leading to their heartfelt moment where Monica reveals why she's resentful of Carol. As is, Monica was mostly just surly around Carol while Kamala provided the levity.

They also could've done something more interesting with the singing planet and Carol's "husband." I'm not a huge fan of stunt casting, but the movie needed someone bigger (in terms of presence, not nec a big name) in that role to leave more of an impression. Someone who could've stole the scene with what little screentime they had and justify the whole musical diversion. (like what Jeff Goldblum did as Grandmaster, imo)

[Scott Taylor]

Yah part of my liking Madame Web more than Marvels has to do with expectations. Marvels had a lot to build on from the first movie and the Ms. Marvel series, but they really failed to do any of that. A lot of what was established in Captain Marvel and elsewhere in the MCU was contradicted or just plain ignored in Marvels. But more than that the movie was just dull. Madame Web was like watching paint dry but Marvels was like watching paint just sit there.

Why did they want to kill him? It never says it's just some point in the future maybe he becomes a big time villain maybe he killed MW or something .

He wants to kill them now before they get powers so he is safe.

Of course if I was him I'd just move to the other side of the world or something so they don't find me.

They hand-waved why the girls would want to kill Ezekiel. But it was just a dream and the movie clearly establishes that Ezekiel is a paranoid SOB from the start. So I was ok with Ezekiel just being a spider-obsessed wackadoodle. Sure its not very sophisticated, but its weird that people are overthinking it.

[PhantomBoom]

Yah part of my liking Madame Web more than Marvels has to do with expectations. Marvels had a lot to build on from the first movie and the Ms. Marvel series, but they really failed to do any of that. A lot of what was established in Captain Marvel and elsewhere in the MCU was contradicted or just plain ignored in Marvels. But more than that the movie was just dull. Madame Web was like watching paint dry but Marvels was like watching paint just sit there.

Ok ignoring how that comparison genuinely doesn't make much sense, what things were contradicted or ignored in the Marvels?
If you're gonna try and say it's worse than Madame Web because of these things, you should at least say what they are.

Black girl magic is totally a hashtag. I just don't like witty asides and important "motivational" dialogue reduced to buzzwords/catchphrases, it undermines the potential emotional development of the characters and scenes. And I only say this because Marvel does this all the time in every movie, not trying to hyperfocus on the Marvels

Literally everything is a hashtag because of how they work.
But in what way does it undermine the development of the characters?
Feels this is just saying we can't have characters make jokes or have comedic scenes anymore.

[James Cameron]

Ok ignoring how that comparison genuinely doesn't make much sense, what things were contradicted or ignored in the Marvels?
If you're gonna try and say it's worse than Madame Web because of these things, you should at least say what they are.



Literally everything is a hashtag because of how they work.
But in what way does it undermine the development of the characters?
Feels this is just saying we can't have characters make jokes or have comedic scenes anymore.

If it were advertised as a straight-up comedy (which most MCU movies are these days) , or if every other line of dialogue in these movies were not an attempt at humor, it wouldn't be as cringey to me. Because it's so prevalent it's hard for me to appreciate - and when things are supposed to be serious, I can't view it on those merits because everything else is so silly. In general, I think there can be better thought-out lines of dialogue that have a more meaningful impact than "man up!" or "black girl magic!"
of course, context is important, I understand not everyone feels this way

[j9ac9k]

If it were advertised as a straight-up comedy (which most MCU movies are these days) , or if every other line of dialogue in these movies were not an attempt at humor, it wouldn't be as cringey to me. Because it's so prevalent it's hard for me to appreciate - and when things are supposed to be serious, I can't view it on those merits because everything else is so silly. In general, I think there can be better thought-out lines of dialogue that have a more meaningful impact than "man up!" or "black girl magic!"
of course, context is important, I understand not everyone feels this way

That statement applies to like the last five MCU movies, no?

[James Cameron]

That statement applies to like the last five MCU movies, no?

I've felt that way about the MCU since GOTG2

[PhantomBoom]

If it were advertised as a straight-up comedy (which most MCU movies are these days) , or if every other line of dialogue in these movies were not an attempt at humor, it wouldn't be as cringey to me. Because it's so prevalent it's hard for me to appreciate - and when things are supposed to be serious, I can't view it on those merits because everything else is so silly. In general, I think there can be better thought-out lines of dialogue that have a more meaningful impact than "man up!" or "black girl magic!"
of course, context is important, I understand not everyone feels this way

The idea most MCU movies are comedies is just flat out wrong, that's not even debatable it's just factually incorrect, and really this is just sounding like we can't have any sort of jokes or comedic scenes anymore, and that everything needs to completely serious and dour all the time like a Snyder movie.

[James Cameron]

The idea most MCU movies are comedies is just flat out wrong, that's not even debatable it's just factually incorrect, and really this is just sounding like we can't have any sort of jokes or comedic scenes anymore, and that everything needs to completely serious and dour all the time like a Snyder movie.

That's pretty extreme, I just think they overdo the jokes to the point where they are comedies to me, and that lessens the impact of the intended humor. It's better when it's sparsed out and not every other piece of dialogue is something silly or goofy or some type of reference or self awareness.

[choptop]

The idea most MCU movies are comedies is just flat out wrong, that's not even debatable it's just factually incorrect, and really this is just sounding like we can't have any sort of jokes or comedic scenes anymore, and that everything needs to completely serious and dour all the time like a Snyder movie.

I mean they are at least comedy toned that's not always a bad thing but they have over done it in some movies

[Scott Taylor]

Generally I hate to dwell on negative stuff about these movies. Its entertainment, y'all, and not to be taken all that seriously. So yah its just a personal preference on my part that Madame Web is a better movie. Been a while since I saw Marvels, and Madame Web is fresher, but specific things that bothered me about the Marvels that still stick with me are mainly that it was just a plain, all out dull movie (except for some of the humor and that dance sequence, that was fun). A few other things:

-The Skrulls have a homeworld! Someone should have told those guys in Secret Invasion
-The Flerken are super dangerous and kill what they swallow. But they get used for transport here. Again, not to be taken too seriously because they are just a plot device in any case, but that was a long bad CGI scene for a mere plot device
-Dar Benn should not have been a challenge for Captain Marvel, let alone all three Marvels combined.
-Kamala is a mutant and does not need bangles for her powers
-Dar Benn seemed to be doing fine with her plan, so why again is she bugging the Marvels in the first place? My guess is she read the script.
-Nick Fury is oddly normal for a guy who went through the trauma he did in Secret Invasion.
-Monica's powers remain very confusing and hard to pin as they have since Wandavision. Mainly this is my OCD because I like to at least know what to expect. Kamala's got big stretchy hand abilities. Captain Marvel flies through space ships. Monica - frees guys specifically named Boner from control by witches? Heals rifts in space time?

As long as I am going on the negative stuff (which again I hate to even do), let me add that it was very nice to see Carol and Monica discuss their pasts in this movie. Nice to see that explored.

[PhantomBoom]

Generally I hate to dwell on negative stuff about these movies. Its entertainment, y'all, and not to be taken all that seriously. So yah its just a personal preference on my part that Madame Web is a better movie. Been a while since I saw Marvels, and Madame Web is fresher, but specific things that bothered me about the Marvels that still stick with me are mainly that it was just a plain, all out dull movie (except for some of the humor and that dance sequence, that was fun). A few other things:

-The Skrulls have a homeworld! Someone should have told those guys in Secret Invasion
-The Flerken are super dangerous and kill what they swallow. But they get used for transport here. Again, not to be taken too seriously because they are just a plot device in any case, but that was a long bad CGI scene for a mere plot device
-Dar Benn should not have been a challenge for Captain Marvel, let alone all three Marvels combined.
-Kamala is a mutant and does not need bangles for her powers
-Dar Benn seemed to be doing fine with her plan, so why again is she bugging the Marvels in the first place? My guess is she read the script.
-Nick Fury is oddly normal for a guy who went through the trauma he did in Secret Invasion.
-Monica's powers remain very confusing and hard to pin as they have since Wandavision. Mainly this is my OCD because I like to at least know what to expect. Kamala's got big stretchy hand abilities. Captain Marvel flies through space ships. Monica - frees guys specifically named Boner from control by witches? Heals rifts in space time?

As long as I am going on the negative stuff (which again I hate to even do), let me add that it was very nice to see Carol and Monica discuss their pasts in this movie. Nice to see that explored.

Ok just to run down the list because so much of this is wrong.

The Skrulls don't have a homeworld, that was a refugee colony, its even stated in the movie that so many Skrulls are scattered and they still lack a home.

In the first Captain Marvel it was shown Flerkens can spit up the things they swallowed.

Dar-Benn wasn't a challenge for Captain Marvel it's why she needed the bangle, it drained Carol's energy, along with how switching with Kamala and Monica messes up how she fights.

The movie never once says Kamala needed the bangles for her powers, she's even shown using her powers without them on.

Dar-Benn isn't "bugging the Marvels", she never directly goes after them, they go after her because they know her plan is to go after planets Carol saved and cared for.

One it's not known how long the Marvels is after Secret Invasion, two people aren't static they don't remain in one emotional state all the time heck he was looking back to normal at the end of Secret Invasion itself anyway.

Monica's powers are shown and explained in the movie, she can become intangible by turning herself into light, fly and fire lasers from her hands.

You can't just keep repeating "the movie was dull" every time it's pointed out how what you're saying about it is either not true or doesn't make sense.