Gojo and Sukuna vs Marvel and DC Magic Users

[JohnDiggle]

How Far would each get in both universes? What Magic users would eventually defeat them?

[Guy1]

Anime or Manga Sukuna? Yujikuna, Megukuna or 4ArmKuna?

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm guessing these guys have some kind of awesome freaky abilities that bend reality or something?

Let's start with Baron Mordo, who is a pile of change below Stephen Strange (in that he absolutely needs to do something like 'Sign my soul away for power' to be a serious threat to Stephen in a magical duel) but nevertheless a good competitor for 'one of the best human mages around' (better than Doom when it comes purely to magic, let's just say).

What have they got to throw at him?

[Guy1]

[Sharpandpointies]

This is going to get super complicated, isn't it?

It is, right?

Thanks - I'll check it out when my brain is working correctly.

[Guy1]

This is going to get super complicated, isn't it?

It is, right?

Thanks - I'll check it out when my brain is working correctly.

Have fun! It's honestly one of the best throwdowns in Manga.

spoilers:

And this is all before Sukuna transforms to dunk on the rest of the cast!

end of spoilers

[JohnDiggle]

Anime or Manga Sukuna? Yujikuna, Megukuna or 4ArmKuna?

Lets got with both versions to make this fun

[Dark Soul # 7]

Lets got with both versions to make this fun

The only real difference is that Mahoraga fight and how they amped it up, remove that air plane getting messed up and everything anime Sukuna does seems to be in line with what manga Sukuna can do.

[Jcogginsa]

I'm guessing these guys have some kind of awesome freaky abilities that bend reality or something?

Let's start with Baron Mordo, who is a pile of change below Stephen Strange (in that he absolutely needs to do something like 'Sign my soul away for power' to be a serious threat to Stephen in a magical duel) but nevertheless a good competitor for 'one of the best human mages around' (better than Doom when it comes purely to magic, let's just say).

What have they got to throw at him?

Okay to start with, both of them are super sonic beatsticks capable of demolishing skyscrapers with their barehands. They also have manually activated healing factors which they can use to heal from Greivous wounds. Sukuna is entirely capable of engaging in combat after ripping his own heart out, for example.

Sukuna's primary ability is unrevealed, but his used it to deliver fire attacks that are basically the level of a nuke , as well as launch barrages of invisible cutting attacks.

At certain points in the series, he has access to a variety of summons, the most notable of which is Mahoraga, a beat stick on par with himself that has the ability to adapt to his foes abilties. And he's good enough at his magic system that he can copy some of those adaptations.

He's also got a magic took that shoots lightning

This clip below isn't a feat or special ability or anything. It's just dope as ****



Gojo is the complex one. He's got two primary abilities.

The first is Six Eyes, which gives super duper magical sense, and generally reduces the cost of his magic to an infantesimal scale. Dude can perceive magic on an atomic scale.

The second is his Cursed Technique, which is called Infinity. It allows him to manifest the concept of infinity into reality.

He uses this ability to perform spatial manipulation on both an offensive and Defensive capacity. His Defense is called Limitless, and basically creates infinite distance between himself and his opponent, which means even if it visually looks like you're touching him, you actually aren't. It's automatically active 24/7, but he can manually exclude stuff like Air. from it. Doing it 24 seven techniquely gives him brain damage, but he just fixes it by having his healing technique also run constantly. A side effect of that also means he's never suffering from mental fatigue

Offensively, he has a technique called Blue which pulls foes closer, and Red which knocks them away. He can combine this into a powerful projectile called Purple, which does both at the same time, which instantly destroys things.

Gojo also has a special technique called a Domain Expansion. Domain Expansions are basically pocket dimensions, wherein every attack the caster uses is guranteed to hit, because the magic spawns directly on top of them. This is capable of bypassing event Gojo's own Limitless.

Anyway, as part of Gojo's limitless, he can use a technique called Unlimited Void, which stunlocks those targeted by it via subjecting to an unending mental stimulus. So not only can you not take any conscious action, it's also giving you literal brain damage to boot and also damaging your soul.

He can also teleport over vast distances.

[Captain Morgan]

The only real difference is that Mahoraga fight and how they amped it up, remove that air plane getting messed up and everything anime Sukuna does seems to be in line with what manga Sukuna can do.

Spoilers
Spoilers
spoilers

Sorta. Both anime and manga have a similar top end output, represented by Sukuna's Domain being able to dust nearly 200 meters of Tokyo. (Gojo's Hollow Purple has a similar area of destruction.) But the anime Sukuna fights involve a similar level of force being thrown out through physical strength and more casual energy blasts. To stretch out a handful of pages into a full episode, they ramped up the spectacle. It is real fun to look at but makes less sense. Domain Expansion is an apex technique which can't be repeatedly fired off without great strain, but it ultimately feels less necessary when Jogo is melting multiple city blocks without resorting to Domain.

For reference, large chunks of the Gojo/Sukuna manga fight took place in a single office building. They're able to punch each other through multiple buildings, but actually leveling them takes some extended fighting or a big signature move. The anime versions are just flooring buildings in moments and tearing an absurd path of destruction just by punching each other. Or look at the clip Jcoggninsa posted. Jogo's meteor is towering over sky scrapers where in the manga it was somewhat shorter than the surrounding buildings. For these fights it probably won't matter because DC/Marvel mages aren't likely to do super speed punch ups, but the anime versions could likely overwhelm their manga counterparts on raw stats and keep Domain Expansion from deciding the fight.

As to the topic... There's essentially 3 hurdles the JJK boys represent. An opponent probably needs to have an answer to all 3 to win.

1. Speed. They are both probably multi-mach speedsters without looking too hard at the scaling. They should get lots of wins on the blitz unless their opponent is equally fast or (more likely for mages) passive durability or auto shields.

2. Sheer output: in comic book terms, they feel like they top out at class 80, leveling multiple city blocks in one go but not entire cities. Putting them at "nuke" levels is way too much.

3. Bypassing physical defenses. Because of differences between JJK and comic book powers, I'm going to need to take some liberties with how things translate to each other. The most reliable method here is likely the sensory overload of Unlimited Void since it isn't an attack in the typical sense, and stun locking someone for 10 seconds should be a win in the Khazan. The easiest analogue to comics is telepathy and mind control, and some mages are really good against this. I don't think Domain Expansion's auto hit feature will matter much. Magic shields tend to either be skin tight, which should work even if an attack manifests directly on top of them, or bubbles, which should qualify as a barrier in JJK terms. Barriers are conceptually significant and should technically separate a mage from the domain. Its questionable whether this applies to Sukuna's Malevolent Shrine since it operates without a boundary, but Gojo could still defend against it with Simple Domain IIRC, so I think a credible magic shield liket the Crimson Bands of Cytorak* could fend it off.

*I know the Crimson Bands aren't primarily shields but I can't remember what spell Strange relies on instead, and the bands' magic draining properties should do in a pinch.

The other X factor is Sukuna's "Slash that Bisects the World," which is weird conceptually attack. It bypassed Gojo's Infinity defense by apparently targeting "everything." You can dodge it, but I'm not sure if it would bypass credible magic shields or if it is specifically anti-Gojo only. Mahagora's adaption was generally confusing and this technique was doubly so. Speaking of Mahagora, he'd be in the mix for certain versions of this fight. But I suspect most fights will be too short for his adaptation to matter. Similarly, I feel that Gojo's Infinity defense won't be worth much against esoteric attacks which don't need to physically reach him or output drastically beyond what he can handle without invoking a no limit fallacy. There are a fair number of ways to negate it in JJK so s determined mage should be able to figure one out if they aren't instantly killed.

Let's throw a few names out there.

Zatana: No passive defenses AFAIK, so she gets blitzed despite being much more potent than JJK.

Shazam: He qualifies as a mage at this point, IMO, but his speed and strength should still be enough to blitz the boys even if Billy is no longer a Kryptonian analogue.

Doctor Strange: Their output is comically below Strange. I'm sure his passive defenses won't buckle from extended blitzes or continuous attacks. He's beaten Moondragon in a mental duel, so Unlimited Void working for a full ten seconds seems unlikely. (I'd be sure if that if I knew if this was the same Moondragon who could mind control and entire planet.) And when Stephen acts, he can basically blow up the planet they are on. His defenses should also be too esoteric for Sukuna to bypass.

Doctor Fate: too durable for the boys to scratch. Nabu should be able to either shield Fate's mind or snap him out of it. Basically the same outcome as Doctor Strange, except instead of blowing up the planet he throws it into the sun because Doctor Fate is extra like that.

Doctor Doom: This feels like a credible match. The JJK top output feels comparable to the Thing's strength of Human Torch's nova. Doom has had various versions, but he usually can take that kind of output but not forever. He's smart enough to consider infinity and has no sold planetary mind control on pure will power. He should yawn at unlimited Void. And the Crimson Bands would double as a good offensive and defensive tool. I essentially see this as an endurance match game of tag. Do Doom's defenses crack before the Crimson Bands can corner the JJK boys? I could see it going either way. I might be convinced otherwise by specific Doom feats.

[Sharpandpointies]

As usual, Call for the Captain!

Specifics -

1. Strange's normal bubble shields have held off a planet exploding in his face with enough force to propel him at superluminal speeds through space. If that's not enough, we can upgrade with a number of different specific shields - the Conjured Crystal of Cyttorak is one choice, the always-famous Shield of the Seraphim is another (that one has shrugged off the Surfer's attacks and forces Dormammu to actually work).

2. Strange did indeed defeat the Moondragon who has mentally controlled a planet in a psychic duel, though he collapsed soon after (granted, he was recovering from getting ambush mind-zorched by her a short time before). His mental strength is such that he's a completely closed mind to Xavier.

Worth noting that the Crimson Bands can catch astral forms in flight, as in 'catch up to and snag'.

In astral form, people can fly to the sun in a very short time (like, maybe a minute or two - certainly not the ~ 8.2 light minutes it actually is, given at the time Stephen had all kinds of stuff in pursuit of him, zapping away at his shields, and the entire flight took place over three or four panels with a few thought-bubbles and gloating comments from Mordo). Astral flight isn't explicitly noted as being lightspeed, but...the feats kind of bear it up (Strange also uses it to zip to the other side of the world in a couple of seconds to chat with his mentor, or Aged Genghis, or whatever).

[Captain Morgan]

As usual, Call for the Captain!

Specifics -

1. Strange's normal bubble shields have held off a planet exploding in his face with enough force to propel him at superluminal speeds through space. If that's not enough, we can upgrade with a number of different specific shields - the Conjured Crystal of Cyttorak is one choice, the always-famous Shield of the Seraphim is another (that one has shrugged off the Surfer's attacks and forces Dormammu to actually work).

2. Strange did indeed defeat the Moondragon who has mentally controlled a planet in a psychic duel, though he collapsed soon after (granted, he was recovering from getting ambush mind-zorched by her a short time before). His mental strength is such that he's a completely closed mind to Xavier.

Worth noting that the Crimson Bands can catch astral forms in flight, as in 'catch up to and snag'.

In astral form, people can fly to the sun in a very short time (like, maybe a minute or two - certainly not the ~ 8.2 light minutes it actually is, given at the time Stephen had all kinds of stuff in pursuit of him, zapping away at his shields, and the entire flight took place over three or four panels with a few thought-bubbles and gloating comments from Mordo). Astral flight isn't explicitly noted as being lightspeed, but...the feats kind of bear it up (Strange also uses it to zip to the other side of the world in a couple of seconds to chat with his mentor, or Aged Genghis, or whatever).

Yeah, I'm sure Strange could catch them with the Crimson Bands, but Doom was explicitly worse with them last I checked so I didn't see him instantly capturing a couple of mach 3 bricks with significant output and a bit of esoterica.

[Jcogginsa]

On the note of Bubble Shields, it should be noted that by JJK verse rules to context a Domain Expansion's sure hit effect you need a domain that has a sure hit hit effect too. if you're do main doesn't have one, their sure-hit will still work on you.

I'm also not entirely sure if Strange's barrier's are esoteric enough to qualify as a Barrier in JJK parlance, though that shouldn't really matter too much given all his other advantages.

On the topic of Billy Batson, I'm not sure if he has anyway around Limitless. He's much better than Gojo Statwise but Limitless isn't really something you can brute force

[JohnDiggle]

I am wondering if John Constatine with prep would be able to beat them.

[Captain Morgan]

On the note of Bubble Shields, it should be noted that by JJK verse rules to context a Domain Expansion's sure hit effect you need a domain that has a sure hit hit effect too. if you're do main doesn't have one, their sure-hit will still work on you.

Not true. Simple Domain and Hollow Wicker Basket both prevent it. Megumi's domain was incomplete and never demonstrated the sure hit effect but was still able to contest someone else's.

On the topic of Billy Batson, I'm not sure if he has anyway around Limitless. He's much better than Gojo Statwise but Limitless isn't really something you can brute force

1. Despite the name, no limit fallacies are a still a no go on rumbles. DC comics operate on a scale of brute force that JJK has no equivalent for, so we really can't say it can handle unlimited power.

2. Billy isn't just a brick anymore. He can teleport, transmute matter, and conjure objects out of thin air. He's closer to a Thor analogue than Superman now, and he should be able to figure out something for Limitless given Gojo can't hurt him.