Women of Marvel vs Women of DC

[Wildling]

Next biggest challenge sounds like this Solaris lady. Did she inherit the fully upgraded Sentry powers? Did she inherit the Void too? Is she more mentally stable than Bob?

There might be lingering questions about upgraded Sentry (who arguably got powered up a second time during Annihilation Scourge when the Void gorged on Negative Zone energies before being re-merged into Sentry) regarding if his full powers survived his death and the fact the powers were transferred because his corpse was reanimated by a villain organization before getting blown up. Yeah Bob's history has been weird and complicated. I'll try to summarize things that stand out about all of this, as they happened in order:

1) Even as a corpse, he was powerful enough to wreck Sorcerer Supreme Clea and Harvestman Stephen Strange, they had to merge into a cosmic being capable of massive spells above their individual capabilities in order to win, and even then Sentry was said to be a match for them, they didn't outright overpower him but cast a spell to release the ghosts that were possessing him at the time and allowed the villains to control him. And even THEN, his powers survived the ensuing magic explosion to the point they didn't just possess a random escaping henchman, but apparently shielded him from the cosmic merged entity spell that otherwise in the blink of an eye mindwiped and teleported/warped every other henchman in the villain organization that necromanced Bob.

2) These powers are not only Sentry's powers but also contain his memories, probably because of his telepathic capabilities, several people (6 in total, Mallory Gibbs eventually was the one who got all of them) who got a part of Sentry's powers kept getting flashbacks of his past.

3) The Void is absent from these events in person but Mallory became aware of him and some of the flashbacks they kept getting (Sentry killing Ares, fighting Thor, beating Molecule Man), happened when Void was influencing or taking over Bob. But Mallory doesn't remotely have the complex mental issues that afflicted Bob, the only thing is she has cerebral palsy which leads to occasional involuntary spasms that she feared might make her hurt people. She was taken to the Aberrant Crimes Division to get training for her new powers.

4) Otherwise, even if the new Sentry miniseries where this happened didn't show any new high-end feats for stuff like strength, it was a good showcase of how many powers Sentry can use (keep in mind for these feats none of these characters at any given time wielded the full powers): one of them EMP'd Manhattan into a blackout, another character transmutated a collapsing building into feathers to save the people inside, teleported, and after being fatally shot resurrected himself when Sentry's powers manifested within him, another character had telepathy where he was able to hear at once the thoughts of everybody around him, and more than one of them showed super hearing. Like Mallory saying she could hear everybody in Earth while she was in the Moon, from her roommate praying for her in NYC to migrants endangered by a storm in the Mediterranean Sea, another character heard her whimpering on the Moon from Earth and went to check on her, and another one living in Toronto heard the Wrecking Crew causing trouble in Wisconsin. One of them instantly knocked out the U-Foes (even Immortal Hulk in his comics didn't do this). And just regarding super speed the feats here seem to be in line with the best Bob did in the past. Right after getting her powers Mallory searched at superspeed a collapsing apartment building in order to evacuate everyone (over a dozen people) without anyone getting hurt, from her perspective they were frozen statues, and from their perspective they "woke up" on the street with zero idea what saved them. Another character ran from Brooklyn to the Tuscarora State Forest in Pennsylvania in the middle of the night, including weaving through heavy traffic, fast enough nobody saw him. The character who heard the Wrecking Crew causing trouble sped to Wisconsin, blitzed them KO then sped back immediately to her desk to continue her daily job, and after seeing a news report of a kaiju-sized Chitauri in Kuala Lumpur, she blitzed it out of Earth's orbit. Regarding flight speed, I don't know how fast Captain Marvel can fly (I assume she might be one of those interplanetary if not galactic fliers) but when she attempted to chase after Ryan (the Sentry empowered character who became the villain of the story), she only got as far as Earth's orbit before he vanished from her (and Iron Man, whose current suit is advanced enough to copy Vision's intangibility, couldn't keep up with Carol in the first place).

And at the end of the story

spoilers:

Mallory was able to transfer the minds/spirits of the other four Sentry empowered people (who were trapped inside the mind of Ryan who had killed them and absorbed their energies to try to become Sentry in full) and put them in full body, full Sentry suited constructs in order to fight Ryan and ultimately depower him and absorb his powers to neutralize him. Basically she created her own Shazam family.

end of spoilers

Didn't Galactus have a daughter in the comics at one point?

Oh yeah I think she lived in Earth too, but also recall an editor said she wasn't canon.

[Rightoya]

Monica Rambeau is a helluva member for Marvel side. Light speed reactions, can't be punched out in her energy form, can zip through your retina to scramble your brain. I even heard she presented a credible planet busting threat in the last decade. She's shut down a lot of the blitz options. I don't think current Wonder Woman is fast enough to tag her, but post crisis might have had a low chance to catch her with the lasso which might revert Moniva to a human, punchable form.

Does current Cheetah exceed light speed? If she can go first and grab Wonder Woman's weapons, it might help take out a few problem ladies. That's the best chance I can think of for DC without getting super in the weeds.

What are we even counting as current Wonder Woman? Because Rebirth was easily fast enough and her lasso worked even on intangible spirits, but if we only count her since she came back from the Sphere of the Gods she is definitively not fast enough although Tom King might change that soon, Cheetah is unfortunately not fast enough either way though.

[Little_Mac]

What are we even counting as current Wonder Woman? Because Rebirth was easily fast enough and her lasso worked even on intangible spirits, but if we only count her since she came back from the Sphere of the Gods she is definitively not fast enough although Tom King might change that soon, Cheetah is unfortunately not fast enough either way though.

Is the female Doctor Light still around? Her (and Irey West/Jesse Quick) should lock down the speed category for DC.

DC should be more worried about Clea Strange and Jean Grey than Monica. l(I think Jean Grey might have the phoenix back instead of Echo). Clea/Scarlet Witch/Magik/Hela/Madelyne Pryor gives Marvel the magical side of the battle. Zatanna/Black Alice isn't enough for that side.

[Captain Morgan]

Is the female Doctor Light still around? Her (and Irey West/Jesse Quick) should lock down the speed category for DC.

DC should be more worried about Clea Strange and Jean Grey than Monica. l(I think Jean Grey might have the phoenix back instead of Echo). Clea/Scarlet Witch/Magik/Hela/Madelyne Pryor gives Marvel the magical side of the battle. Zatanna/Black Alice isn't enough for that side.

Could Doctor Light actually turn into light and operate at light speed like Monica? News to me.

The reason Monica is the first hurdle is because she'll get to act before anyone else I can think of on the Marvel side. And a bunch of DC ladies will otherwise be blitzing Marvel crew. Both sides have lots of people who are heinously powerful if they can act. But a certain chunk of them will be taken out before then via blitz. Even those with passive defenses (I imagine Clea has auto shields) may not be able to withstand Supergirl, Wonder Woman, and whoever else slamming them at the same time.

[Beadle]

She’s not got Surfer-type speed-feats, but is Frankie Raye Nova alive at the moment? Having a powerful female herald around is not nothing.

And did the Strontian woman from Annihilation die? I forget. Edit: never mind. She’s not Earth-based.

[Slade1]

Is the female Doctor Light still around? Her (and Irey West/Jesse Quick) should lock down the speed category for DC.

DC should be more worried about Clea Strange and Jean Grey than Monica. l(I think Jean Grey might have the phoenix back instead of Echo). Clea/Scarlet Witch/Magik/Hela/Madelyne Pryor gives Marvel the magical side of the battle. Zatanna/Black Alice isn't enough for that side.

You can add Circe and Mary Marvel in to the DC magic side.

Also, all the Amazonians from Themiscara would be on this list. Vixen hasn’t been mentioned yet either.

[Sharpandpointies]

Amusing to note, but 'currently based on Earth' means we have TWO mages ~ on Strange's level of power trotting in, and they're related.

Umar is currently the Warlord of Antarctica, if I recall. 'New Umarria' (ego runs in the family, fortunately a touch more healthily in Clea).

...I feel Marvel still has the magic side locked in.

[Slade1]

Amusing to note, but 'currently based on Earth' means we have TWO mages ~ on Strange's level of power trotting in, and they're related.

Umar is currently the Warlord of Antarctica, if I recall. 'New Umarria' (ego runs in the family, fortunately a touch more healthily in Clea).

...I feel Marvel still has the magic side locked in.

You’re probably right but remember Black Alice can just siphon off their power to herself. She’s done this to many magic users including Dr.Fate and the Spectre. So she’s not going to have a problem doing so.

[Beadle]

I take it Asgard is no longer situated in the Midwest or wherever it was?

[Beadle]

Are Gaea and Ashema both currently Earth-based in Marvel?

And do we count Death of the Endless as being Earth-based?

[Sharpandpointies]

You’re probably right but remember Black Alice can just siphon off their power to herself. She’s done this to many magic users including Dr.Fate and the Spectre. So she’s not going to have a problem doing so.

Alice is definitely a wild card, here - takes someone off the board while getting their powers. Here's the potential issue with siphoning a Marvel mage's power - it's very likely all of you've done by doing that is take away their basic and mid-level stuff. And that's all you've gotten from them, as well.

I'm having problems seeing if there's nothing stopping them from still using their incantations to entities of power, and likely Alice doesn't get those (based on my understanding, but I could be wrong, see below). So if she steals, say, Umar's magic power, she can create Umar's personal shields, use her basic spells - the ones dependent on Umar's intrinsic power, like bolts of bedevilment - and so forth. And yes, those are quite powerful. But barring her having feats for such, she can't, for example, use the Bolts of Balthakk, nor the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, because those? All the power from those comes from those entities, granted to a person who has developed the skill to call upon them. The mage isn't directly linked to their power, it's not part of their personal magic - the power and the effect comes from the entity itself.

But maybe she can - maybe she gets all the skills of the mage as well (she doesn't get Wonder Woman's hand to hand skill, last time I checked, though it's not quite the same thing). Even so, what's stopping the Marvel mage from continuing to use those spells?

I mean, I could be wrong. But as far as I know, magic in DC is something that is dependent on some intrinsic power the mage carries within themselves or to which they are directly connected. Their magical storage of power and such. Wonder Woman isn't a mage and Alice can steal her powers because they are derived from magic, as an example.

But for Marvel, that's only one aspect to their sorcery. Again, their really good stuff is the dimensional entreaties they've mastered.

And while Alice is using the powers of Umar, she's now going up against Clea, who is far and away more experienced at using those powers, and has her own entreaties to entities as well...which happens to be her best stuff.

Meanwhile Umar is still capable of using whatever entreaties she, herself, has studied over the years.

[Sharpandpointies]

Are Gaea and Ashema both currently Earth-based in Marvel?

And do we count Death of the Endless as being Earth-based?

Gaea would make sense to me, but Death of the Endless? Death is explicitly everywhere in the DC universe - she's not 'Earth's Death'. I would be leery of calling her Earth-Based.

Looking at Ashema's wiki page (not exactly dependable) it says she likely departed Earth after her storyline was complete. I take it she's not around at the moment?

[Beadle]

Gaea would make sense to me, but Death of the Endless? Death is explicitly everywhere in the DC universe - she's not 'Earth's Death'. I would be leery of calling her Earth-Based.

Looking at Ashema's wiki page (not exactly dependable) it says she likely departed Earth after her storyline was complete. I take it she's not around at the moment?

I don’t know. I haven’t read a comic for about 14 years.

But if it only says she’s likely to have departed Earth but her last appearance (and pretty much all appearances) were Earth and Counter Earth, and we’ve never actually seen her leave… to use our usual credo, Feats Or It Didn’t Happen.

So potentially there’s a female Celestial wandering around Marvel Earth. That’s something.

[Slade1]

Alice is definitely a wild card, here - takes someone off the board while getting their powers. Here's the potential issue with siphoning a Marvel mage's power - it's very likely all of you've done by doing that is take away their basic and mid-level stuff. And that's all you've gotten from them, as well.

I'm having problems seeing if there's nothing stopping them from still using their incantations to entities of power, and likely Alice doesn't get those (based on my understanding, but I could be wrong, see below). So if she steals, say, Umar's magic power, she can create Umar's personal shields, use her basic spells - the ones dependent on Umar's intrinsic power, like bolts of bedevilment - and so forth. And yes, those are quite powerful. But barring her having feats for such, she can't, for example, use the Bolts of Balthakk, nor the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, because those? All the power from those comes from those entities, granted to a person who has developed the skill to call upon them. The mage isn't directly linked to their power, it's not part of their personal magic - the power and the effect comes from the entity itself.

But maybe she can - maybe she gets all the skills of the mage as well (she doesn't get Wonder Woman's hand to hand skill, last time I checked, though it's not quite the same thing). Even so, what's stopping the Marvel mage from continuing to use those spells?

I mean, I could be wrong. But as far as I know, magic in DC is something that is dependent on some intrinsic power the mage carries within themselves or to which they are directly connected. Their magical storage of power and such. Wonder Woman isn't a mage and Alice can steal her powers because they are derived from magic, as an example.

But for Marvel, that's only one aspect to their sorcery. Again, their really good stuff is the dimensional entreaties they've mastered.

And while Alice is using the powers of Umar, she's now going up against Clea, who is far and away more experienced at using those powers, and has her own entreaties to entities as well...which happens to be her best stuff.

Meanwhile Umar is still capable of using whatever entreaties she, herself, has studied over the years.

I’m not a Black Alice expert or anything but when she stole Spectre’s power she also stole his ability to access power from the Presence. The Spectre varies in power depending upon how much power he’s mainlining from the Presence and he seemed to be cutoff from it. Same thing with Doctor Fate, who gets his powers from Nabu via the helmet and Anubis via his Amulet. They were both completely cut off.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don’t know. I haven’t read a comic for about 14 years.

But if it only says she’s likely to have departed Earth but her last appearance (and pretty much all appearances) were Earth and Counter Earth, and we’ve never actually seen her leave… to use our usual credo, Feats Or It Didn’t Happen.

So potentially there’s a female Celestial wandering around Marvel Earth. That’s something.

A little more than 'something'. O_o

^_^

I’m not a Black Alice expert or anything but when she stole Spectre’s power she also stole his ability to access power from the Presence. The Spectre varies in power depending upon how much power he’s mainlining from the Presence and he seemed to be cutoff from it. Same thing with Doctor Fate, who gets his powers from Nabu via the helmet and Anubis via his Amulet. They were both completely cut off.

I get that.

The thing is, these people GET their power from a magical source. Nabu gives Fate his power. The Spectre gets his power from the Presence. They then use that power to do whatever. It's how their magic works, it's the source of their magic, itself. It's a link to the source of power that give that constant flow of power to the person/being, allowing them to do magic. If Alice is stealing their magic, she's obviously also getting the source of that magic. This is how DC magic works, it makes sense with how Alice works. Heck, it makes sense with Marvel's magic that depends on the mage's intrinsic psychic energies, or the magic they learn use their own energies to manipulate the magical energies of the universe around them. All that is very similar in many ways to DC's magic.

But Marvel's Dimensional entreaties are not. They are completely removed from the mage. They are not the source of the mage's magic, they do not arise from the mage's own magic or the mage's own power source. They are something else entirely.

Dimensional Entreaties are basically phoning up the entity and saying 'hey, I need the Bolts of Bathukk', and Bathukk says 'Sure, go for it!' And grants that to you. Or reaching out to a place like Munnopur (Munnopur used to be a place, like Cinnibus), and using the power of its Twelve Moons to break a sorcerous shield.

Best argument I can see against the Marvel mage still being able to make a dimensional entreaty is 'they need magic to do the actual incantation'. Now, nowhere does it say that. It's logical, but it's not nailed down anywhere.

So let's say that's the case. Let's say that Alice - stealing Umar's magic - actually prevents Umar from contacting the dimensional entity even if she uses the proper incantation and forms of the mini-ritual.

Alice can then use Umar's own magic, sure. She can use Umar's power to cast bolts of bedevilment, make shields, fly, whathaveyou. But why would she be able to use incantations to call up Bathukk? This sort of thing is a trained skill, short-cast ritual magic, and is completely dependent on the Entity. Some mages can channel more power than others (see: Crimson Bands, and how their power depends on how strong the mage is), but it's still not part and parcel of the Marvel mage's magic. It's not like these mages have some permanent link to these beings or places, and Alice can just usurp that link and then say 'I can use the same magic!' It's not at all the case.

I can see an argument for 'Alice steals Umar's magic, Umar can no longer even use dimensional entreaties because she needs magic - in part - to forge the connection.'

But unless Alice gets all the knowledge, background training, and everything from a mage (the knowledge part is important, not just 'skill to cast spells') I'm not sure how someone can argue that having stolen Umar's personal power, she not only gets access to Umar's personal power, she can also call upon all of the dimensional entreaties known to Umar.

And without that, she's denied access to the best and most powerful weapons in a Marvel Mage's arsenal.

Maybe Alice does get those things; I've not found any indication of such so far (I've been looking), but maybe someone has some good feats.