YJ ANIMATED SERIES vs COMIC CONTINUITY

[Frontier]

I did find it kind of funny how in the season 4 Atlantis arc they still barely focused on Garth.

Artemis was already blonde in the comics. I also don't see how her personality was anything like Cissie.

Really? Sassy and brazen archer with family issues?

[Agent Z]

Characters are only as relevant as they are used. How often was Sportsmaster or Tigress being used before their appearance in YJ? Also really reductive to claim Cheshire's comic stories only focus on who she's sleeping with when we've had story arcs about her seeking revenge on her biological father, on trial for genocide and her somewhat....complicated relationship with her daughter.

Ram V's Detective Comics is the first time in decades, if not forever that Jade's relationship with Lian has really been fleshed out. Almost every arc in the comics has centered her male lovers, whether it's Roy Harper or Thomas Blake (a relationship Gail Simon created). The arc with her father was the exception to the rule and it was also a retcon by Simone and it still ended up being about a man in her life. Even the story about her nuking a country was in Deathstroke's book. Young Justice at least allowed Jade to have complex relationships with other female characters.

The recipe that Marv Wolfman and later Gail Simone cooked up with Cheshire may not be perfect but that doesn't mean entire ingredients need to be thrown out. Chesire aka Jade Nguyen; a young girl rescued from slavery by a Chinese mercenary named Weng Chan, mastered the art of poison and seeks revenge on her father for sexually abusing her mother. Makes a point between separating her working persona 'Cheshire' and 'Jade'. Loves her daughter in her own twisted way but is also willing to push her away.

The last two ingredients were kept in the YJ show at least.

I guess I come from the pov where I saw Cheshire as the bigger villain, what with blowing up a country for shits and giggles and being an active player during story arcs like Villains United while characters like Sportsmaster and Tigress had largely receded to the background. So the show arbitrarily making Cheshire related to them came off as an attempt to make Sportsmaster/Tigress more relevant.

As far as the people watching the show are concerned, Cheshire, Sportsmaster and Tigress aren't bigger than the other. Jade doesn't play a major role in events often.

More reddish. Or strawberry blonde I would say.

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I guess that depended on the artist.

[Agent Z]

I did find it kind of funny how in the season 4 Atlantis arc they still barely focused on Garth.

Really? Sassy and brazen archer with family issues?

That's almost everyone in the Arrow clan.

[Frontier]

That's almost everyone in the Arrow clan.

Yeah, but in terms of voice I think they're pretty similar. Like reading PAD's YJ it felt like Artemis dialogue.

[John Venus]

Ram V's Detective Comics is the first time in decades, if not forever that Jade's relationship with Lian has really been fleshed out. Almost every arc in the comics has centered her male lovers, whether it's Roy Harper or Thomas Blake (a relationship Gail Simon created). The arc with her father was the exception to the rule and it was also a retcon by Simone and it still ended up being about a man in her life. Even the story about her nuking a country was in Deathstroke's book. Young Justice at least allowed Jade to have complex relationships with other female characters.

I don't think you need to uproot her family and rewrite her backstory just to give her complex relationships with other female characters. Even in the comics, its a matter of priorities and what writers choose to focus on rather than a problem with the character herself.

The last two ingredients were kept in the YJ show at least.

As far as the people watching the show are concerned, Cheshire, Sportsmaster and Tigress aren't bigger than the other. Jade doesn't play a major role in events often.

Just providing my pov from having been familiar with the characters before the show came on. I'm aware that newer viewers are likely to just go along with it.

[Agent Z]

I don't think you need to uproot her family and rewrite her backstory just to give her complex relationships with other female characters.

In fairness, there's already a precedent for changing Jade's backstory as seen with Simone's Birds of Prey.

Even in the comics, its a matter of priorities and what writers choose to focus on rather than a problem with the character herself.

I'd say what these writers choose to prioritize, especially when it comes to women characters, says quite a bit about this medium's rather poor history when it comes to writing women, especially when they are villains, non-white or both.

If Jade's family wasn't a priority in the comics, what really is the harm in giving her a new one in an adaptation?

Just providing my pov from having been familiar with the characters before the show came on. I'm aware that newer viewers are likely to just go along with it.

Very well then.

[Stanlos]

Ram V's Detective Comics is the first time in decades, if not forever that Jade's relationship with Lian has really been fleshed out. Almost every arc in the comics has centered her male lovers, whether it's Roy Harper or Thomas Blake (a relationship Gail Simon created). The arc with her father was the exception to the rule and it was also a retcon by Simone and it still ended up being about a man in her life. Even the story about her nuking a country was in Deathstroke's book. Young Justice at least allowed Jade to have complex relationships with other female characters.




The last two ingredients were kept in the YJ show at least.



As far as the people watching the show are concerned, Cheshire, Sportsmaster and Tigress aren't bigger than the other. Jade doesn't play a major role in events often.





I guess that depended on the artist.

Cheshire fan here of the long term variety. I don't know how you arrive at the notion that Cheshire stories focus mostly let alone solely on who she is sleeping with. That is a no. Her stories focus on her major league bad @$$ery, whether it be her nigh peerless martial skills, her insane acrobatic skills, her peerless expertise with poisons and snares, or S tier strategy and planning capabilities. That is how I came to be a fan.

I had read of her as an international terrorist, world class assassin, and leader of the Ravens. It was quite some time before I came to know of her ties to Roy Harper.

That said, her having a romantic or sexual life needn't diminish her other traits any more than it does for someone like Superman who has a lot of paramours and even a naming convention for them.

[Agent Z]

Cheshire fan here of the long term variety. I don't know how you arrive at the notion that Cheshire stories focus mostly let alone solely on who she is sleeping with. That is a no. Her stories focus on her major league bad @$$ery, whether it be her nigh peerless martial skills, her insane acrobatic skills, her peerless expertise with poisons and snares, or S tier strategy and planning capabilities. That is how I came to be a fan.

I had read of her as an international terrorist, world class assassin, and leader of the Ravens. It was quite some time before I came to know of her ties to Roy Harper.

That said, her having a romantic or sexual life needn't diminish her other traits any more than it does for someone like Superman who has a lot of paramours and even a naming convention for them.

I've read Cheshire's comic appearances and this has been what virtually all of her appearances boil down to ever since she had Lian. As to her skills as a fighter and assassin, those have been pretty unremarkable for the most part since Wolfman stopped writing her: even when she's got an advantage against Lady Shiva she still loses badly and her cleverness these days often amounts to using her sex appeal to mess with a man (look up the term Dragon Lady to see the overall issues with this). Don't even get me started on her outfit or the sexualized poses she is often drawn in.

All in all, comic Jade is a poorly written mess of a character riddled with racist and sexist implications that stands as a prime example of DC's issues with both women and nonwhite characters.

I don't have an issue with Jade having relationships with men. I have an issue when this is the sole focus of her character outside of her being a villain or whatever side she is on.

I don't think comic Jade is an inherently worthless character, but the way she's been handled has just made her uninteresting at best, outdated at worst. Hence, why I think the YJ animated version is better.

[Stanlos]

If by "these days" you mean something that has taken place after Flashturd and New Poopy-2, then I must confess ignorance. My experience of her does not go beyond Pre-Flashturd.

And in those, she was all the things she was with mother of Lian being another facet of her story. As for not looking great versus Shiva, there's like what two street levelers who MIGHT be able to hold their own versus Shiva for a minute or two before her amusement wanes? It is hardly a knock against someone that they can't own Lady Shiva Woosan.

[Agent Z]

If by "these days" you mean something that has taken place after Flashturd and New Poopy-2, then I must confess ignorance. My experience of her does not go beyond Pre-Flashturd.

My experience of her pre-Flashpoint isn't much to write home about.

And in those, she was all the things she was with mother of Lian being another facet of her story. As for not looking great versus Shiva, there's like what two street levelers who MIGHT be able to hold their own versus Shiva for a minute or two before her amusement wanes? It is hardly a knock against someone that they can't own Lady Shiva Woosan.

Shiva is just one example. There's also that embarrassing fight from Simone's Birds of Prey where she loses to Dinah while in her underwear. Or the fight in Rise of Arsenal where couldn't even beat a guy with one arm.

Jade's fighting skills past her original appearances are quite unremarkable. It's not even that she loses fights, she often loses them in an undignified manner. And that's the least of her issues as a character.

[Stanlos]

My experience of her pre-Flashpoint isn't much to write home about.



Shiva is just one example. There's also that embarrassing fight from Simone's Birds of Prey where she loses to Dinah while in her underwear. Or the fight in Rise of Arsenal where couldn't even beat a guy with one arm.

Jade's fighting skills past her original appearances are quite unremarkable. It's not even that she loses fights, she often loses them in an undignified manner. And that's the least of her issues as a character.

Wasn't that bit with Dinah part of her plan?

[Agent Z]

Wasn't that bit with Dinah part of her plan?

Not from what I remember.

[John Venus]

I never saw Jade as the martial arts master type. Her main forte is poison. Shiva and Canary are the type to jump head first into a fight and break their opponents. Cheshire is more likely to study her enemies, get to know them intimately then use it against them. In her first fight with the Titans, she knew about each of them and already knew how to take them out. She beat Shiva by concocting a poison the latter didn't know about.

In fairness, there's already a precedent for changing Jade's backstory as seen with Simone's Birds of Prey.

I'd say what these writers choose to prioritize, especially when it comes to women characters, says quite a bit about this medium's rather poor history when it comes to writing women, especially when they are villains, non-white or both.

If Jade's family wasn't a priority in the comics, what really is the harm in giving her a new one in an adaptation?

Very well then.

Her father was initially said to be French. No other details, practically a blank slate. All Simone did was make him an American senator named Robert Pullman.

Cheshire being a child borne during war and being the product of a soldier assaulting a civilian woman brings to light the harsh reality of war and the kind of sins that often gets brushed under the drug. I'm not a fan of some of the Dragon Lady elements but OG Cheshire could still be improved.

Making her the daughter of a super villain feels almost too sanitary by comparison and makes the world feel insular, like it's just the heroes and villains and who they're related to who matters. While we're at it why don't we say Thomas and Martha were killed by ray guns wielded by a costumed super villain or have Roy Harper shooting Venom instead of heroin in 'Snow Birds Don't Fly'?

I'm guessing one of the reasonings behind the change is because animated Cheshire wears a Cheshire cat mask and Tigress is well, tiger themed and Sportsmaster/Artemis are hunter themed. But even so, to me it feels like John Byrne levels of 'Flint Marko and Norman Osborn are related because they have the same hair' trying to make two unrelated characters related based on a common characteristic.

[Stanlos]

Not from what I remember.

She wanted to get to a particular target I thought.

But anyhoos, I had read of her escaping supermax prison with a spork and a length of twine in order to audition for a mob boss assassin contract. She was genuinely bad @$$.

Of course, writers can and have ignored ignored a character's deal. Her martial skills are secondary to her prowess with poison, yes. But that doesn't mean her martial prowess isn't top tier (it is).

[Agent Z]

Her father was initially said to be French. No other details, practically a blank slate. All Simone did was make him an American senator named Robert Pullman.

Yeah, that's kind of my point. If her original backstory can be this easily discarded without any issue, why bother with it at all? Simone didn't even give her mother a name and changed the circumstances under which she was trafficked.

Cheshire being a child borne during war and being the product of a soldier assaulting a civilian woman brings to light the harsh reality of war and the kind of sins that often gets brushed under the rug. I'm not a fan of some of the Dragon Lady elements but OG Cheshire could still be improved.

I think she did have potential (as I do for most characters) but DC squandered it. The story Simone did was really just an excuse for her to pull off a convoluted plan that involved killing Shiva's master and framing her for her own murders. Any chance at telling nuanced stories with Jade went out the window when they had her nuke Qurac and wrote her as a cliche for most of her subsequent appearances. Really, even her original design kind of hints that she was meant to be a caricature of Asian women.

If they want to adapt the closer to the original, there is a lot they would have to get rid of. Even then, I still think making her and Artemis sisters would be a nice nod to the YJ show and as I said, it helps both characters.

Making her the daughter of a super villain feels almost too sanitary by comparison and makes the world feel insular, like it's just the heroes and villains and who they're related to who matters. While we're at it why don't we say Thomas and Martha were killed by ray guns wielded by a costumed super villain or have Roy Harper shooting Venom instead of heroin in 'Snow Birds Don't Fly'?

I wouldn't call it sanitary given how abusive Sportsmaster is. I think Weisman and company came up with the idea of Artemis as a member of the Arrowfamily first and then decided to make her and Jade sisters due to the latter's involvement with Roy Harper to add more complications.

As for Batman's parents, they've been adding twists to the Waynes' deaths since 1956, when Bill Finger established that they were the victims of an assassination. Batman, Begins, Gotham and Reeves' The Batman also attribute (or imply) that the Waynes' deaths weren't a random mugging.

I'm guessing one of the reasonings behind the change is because animated Cheshire wears a Cheshire cat mask and Tigress is well, tiger themed and Sportsmaster/Artemis are hunter themed. But even so, to me it feels like John Byrne levels of 'Flint Marko and Norman Osborn are related because they have the same hair' trying to make two unrelated characters related based on a common characteristic.

Well, I consider Greg Weisman to be a better writer than post 80s Byrne, so I think he pulled it off.