Phoenix and Storm get SOLOS under Brevoort!

[Hakka84]

Instead of solos maybe Marvel should have both heroines star together in an ongoing as the premiere bi-sexual couple? Or Poly.

Don't we have Betsy and Phoenix!lite (aka Rachel) for that?

[Digifiend]

Because it isn't a Jean comic... Or did you mean to say that in a sarcastic tone? I can't tell lol.

I genuinely didn't know there'd been a Phoenix other than Jean or Rachel at that point. So, no, I wasn't being sarcastic.

[PyroFN]

If it were two other characters who were so inclined, perhaps not. Not Jean and Storm. And...there's a reason why Hickman's poly relationship plot point between Jean, Scott, Emma and Logan went nowhere.

Yeah. The industry was not brave enough for it. Nor did the writers have any actual ideas for it based on how much freedom writers typically have with generating ideas to White in the Krakoan Era.

There is issues with the actual choice itself character-wise, but I don’t think they cared enough about that if they were so bold enough to even hint at it to begin with.

[Askani's Flame]

I genuinely didn't know there'd been a Phoenix other than Jean or Rachel at that point. So, no, I wasn't being sarcastic.

It came out right after the Phoenix miniseries starrring Rachel. After she willed the PF to leave Diamanda Nero, it left her and traveled the multiverse and found Malibu Comics.

[Mercury]

I think the thing with this topic, personally, is that the times where Jean was essentially denied the Phoenix were very frustrating, both from a meta perspective (from being annoyed at the writers) and in-story (as in having to see that narrative being told when reading said stories). So, when people acknowledge that and express their feelings over it, and you act like this was never a thing and it was all always meant to lead into this and in fact has always been like this even in all the times where it's said otherwise, that feels frustrating too. It's kind of alienating like we're all supposed to get into this same mindset where there was nothing to worry about and those stories all perfectly fit together... Which, again, I understand rationalizing it as a way to have things make sense in your head. We kinda all have to do this to an extent when reading Marvel comics because there's so much continuity that doesn't make sense together.

I feel like we're talking in circles now. I understand your point, i.e., that it is valid and even important to remember the instances in which "Jean was essentially denied the Phoenix" due to how those instances impacted fans and, perhaps more importantly, because of the social and political implications behind the myriad reasons and decisions that led to those instances. However, I don't think remembering this should overshadow the repeated attempts Claremont and other writers have made throughout nearly forty years, including the current era, to right those decisions by underscoring that Jean is Phoenix. If anything, the continual focus on said decisions is not only akin to beating a dead horse but is also a disservice to Jean as a character and the work put in by numerous writers to make cogent and poignant those instances in Jean's history that constitute as inconsistent.

Ultimately, Havok83 commented on Jean's history from a meta-perspective, and I responded from an in-story perspective. I don't think either of us was wrong or being rude for doing so. They're different perspectives that are equally valid.

But not everyone can think like that about all the aspects of Jean/Phoenix stories, at least not in the same way as you, and when they talk about it the way they see it and you respond by basically trying to impose your own views, usually by showing stuff that we've already read, like it was some undeniable truth, err, it's kind of annoying, and does feel a bit condescending, like you're implying it's all in our heads that the problem in question was even a thing.

Again, you're claiming I "impos[ed] [my] own views" when I simply posted descriptions of Jean's relationship with and identity as Phoenix that were literally ripped from current comic books and that happen to align not only with what Claremont—Phoenix's creator—has had to say about the two but also with what other writers have written about them for decades. If anything, I am underscoring the underlying, dare I say central, theme of Jean's story: "You are the Phoenix, now and forever." Frankly, it's really none of my concern if underscoring a core aspect of Jean's story is "annoying" or "condescending," especially when neither is my intent. That's for the person interpreting my commentary as annoying and condescending to deal with.

Yeah, I get that you can't be too cynical or else nothing matters, but in this case, what I mean is that certain things we've seen before, like the "now and forever line", the "I'm always Jean and I'm always the Phoenix", stuff like that, they have either lost their meaning, aren't meant to be taken literally, or are vague. They didn't care about "now and forever" when undoing things before, so it doesn't "prove" anything for present or future stories, you know? The only thing that would really matter in my opinion is if they actually established something new and more substantial about Jean/the Phoenix. Like the theories about the Phoenix being created by Jean, being a future Jean in a time paradox, even stuff more simple like the cavewoman Phoenix being a previous incarnation of Jean, etc.

The current comics are literally proving that the lines you quoted have not "lost their meaning" in Jean's story and character and should not be dismissed. However, if a reader chooses to view Jean's history and the histories of other characters in a fragmented manner, honing in on and nitpicking certain eras rather than viewing both as a continuous stream of revelations about said characters, each new revelation informing the ones that came before and that come after, then yeah, I can see much about those histories not making sense. It's akin to missing the forest for the trees. After all, human beings are inconsistent, changeable, and contradictory, as all fictional characters should be. We are not meant to be assessed and judged in an absolute fashion, and neither should these characters.

The parts I didn't respond to are simply because I don't really have anything to say about them right now lol.

That's okay! lol.

I appreciate Mercury reminding us of crucial quotes and scans from Jean's history.

When we post to a public forum like this, we are not just interacting with those we are having a direct discussion with. We are also interfacing with those out there who are reading our discussions and who may remain silent. Some of them may be seeing these panels for the first time.

I know when I discuss (especially argue lol) with someone on the internet, I am mindful of the lurkers out there. I know I likely won't change the mind of the person I'm arguing with, but I may spark an idea in the mind of someone who is casually watching/reading.

Thanks, love. I greatly appreciate your posts, too. And you're absolutely right: A lot of times, I share panels and pages that have been read and shared before precisely for those readers who may not know better. I've had enough fans who do not engage in the various discourses on this forum tell me that I taught them something new about Jean with oft-cited comic book or interview reference.

That is because both you and Mercury like to educate and I also appreciate that. I too try to keep in mind when I post online that it is a public forum and the audience is bigger than the few people I may be interacting with.

Thank you and exactly!

Anywho, I am excited for both the Phoenix and Storm solos. It will feel like a long wait to get more info. So many of us would love to see Jean and Storm interact more. I wish they both were on a team book together. A writer needs to further develop their deep friendship.

I'm thrilled for Jean and Ororo fans, too, and I have a hunch they will be spending time together during this era.

Allegedly this is her new costume

I think it'll be a uniform used for Fall of X and dropped after. It seems that the powers that be aren't keen on transferring Krakoa's aesthetics to the new era. Unless, of course, this "Foreshadow Variant" is meant to foreshadow the new era.

[Wiccan]

I feel like we're talking in circles now. I understand your point, i.e., that it is valid and even important to remember the instances in which "Jean was essentially denied the Phoenix" due to how those instances impacted fans and, perhaps more importantly, because of the social and political implications behind the myriad reasons and decisions that led to those instances. However, I don't think remembering this should overshadow the repeated attempts Claremont and other writers have made throughout nearly forty years, including the current era, to right those decisions by underscoring that Jean is Phoenix. If anything, the continual focus on said decisions is not only akin to beating a dead horse but is also a disservice to Jean as a character and the work put in by numerous writers to make cogent and poignant manner those instances in Jean's history that constitute as inconsistent.

Ultimately, Havok83 commented on Jean's history from a meta-perspective, and I responded from an in-story perspective. I don't think either of us was wrong or being rude for doing so. They're different perspectives that are equally valid.



Again, you're claiming I "impos[ed] [my] own views" when I'm simply posted descriptions of Jean's relationship with and identity as Phoenix that were literally ripped from current comic books and that happen to align not only with what Claremont—Phoenix's creator—has had to say about the two but also with what other writers have written about them for decades. If anything, I am underscoring the underlying, dare I say central, theme of Jean's story: "You are the Phoenix, now and forever." Frankly, it's really none of my concern if underscoring a core aspect of Jean's story is "annoying" or "condescending," especially when neither is my intent. That's for the person interpreting my commentary as annoying and condescending to deal with.



The current comics are literally proving that the lines you quoted have not "lost their meaning" in Jean's story and character and should not be dismissed. However, if a reader chooses to view Jean's history and the histories of other characters in a fragmented manner, honing in on and nitpicking certain eras rather than viewing both as a continuous stream of revelations about said characters, each new revelation informing the ones that came before and that come after, then yeah, I can see much about those histories not making sense. It's akin to missing the forest for the trees. After all, human beings are inconsistent, changeable, and contradictory, as all fictional characters should be. We are not meant to be assessed and judged in an absolute fashion, and neither should these characters.

The parts I didn't respond to are simply because I don't really have anything to say about them right now lol.

That's okay! lol.[/QUOTE]

I probably overreacted a bit and didn't need to have made a whole thing out of it, so sorry about that. I mean, not in the sense that I take it all back cause I feel how I feel and I don't think it was rude to say it, but to have these kinds of arguments takes some energy so I'm like "uh why did I even bother writing all that when I could've just left them alone".

When I say the lines have "lost their meaning", I don't exactly mean that they don't matter at all but in the sense that they don't necessarily mean the same thing as before. The way I see it, they're kinda vague and up to interpretation. For example, "I'm always Jean and I'm always the Phoenix" feels to me like it means that, when Jean and the Phoenix are merged, they're one entity. Even if she's speaking in "Phoenix voice" for example, it's still Jean, and when Jean is "normal" that doesn't mean she isn't the Phoenix too. "Now and forever", for example, I would say is not literal, since the Phoenix as we know and Jean can be separated, at least to some extent. And there's also the fact that other characters, when hosting the force, have also said that.

I don't think it's that I'm ignoring and picking and choosing. If anything, I think it's exactly because I sort of accept everything that has been published as canon that I think like this, because in my mind the things that are said have to at least be somewhat true or make sense in the context of the story and to why the characters would have said that. So yeah I have trouble making sense out of everything together, because I don't like to just assume that what was said before was wrong based on the new development unless that's what the new story is directly stating.

Like you said, this kinda went in circles, and I probably went on a tangent (depending on how related to the initial discussion you think this is lol) and I don't have anything else to say but I appreciate that you still replied again.

[Wiccan]

Yeah. The industry was not brave enough for it. Nor did the writers have any actual ideas for it based on how much freedom writers typically have with generating ideas to White in the Krakoan Era.

There is issues with the actual choice itself character-wise, but I don’t think they cared enough about that if they were so bold enough to even hint at it to begin with.

I agree. The poly going nowhere and sort of disappearing imo feels like they chickened out. It's probably a mix of it naturally fading after Hickman left, and Marvel probably worrying that it's too controversial. Especially since some people interpreted it as Scott/Logan and even Jean/Emma being a part of it, which I'm sure Marvel wouldn't want.

[Mercury]

NOTE: I corrected some typos in my original post.

I probably overreacted a bit and didn't need to have made a whole thing out of it, so sorry about that. I mean, not in the sense that I take it all back cause I feel how I feel and I don't think it was rude to say it, but to have these kinds of arguments takes some energy so I'm like "uh why did I even bother writing all that when I could've just left them alone".

It's okay, Wiccan. I know you meant no harm. And I'm glad we've had this discussion. You definitely made valid points.

When I say the lines have "lost their meaning", I don't exactly mean that they don't matter at all but in the sense that they don't necessarily mean the same thing as before. The way I see it, they're kinda vague and up to interpretation. For example, "I'm always Jean and I'm always the Phoenix" feels to me like it means that, when Jean and the Phoenix are merged, they're one entity. Even if she's speaking in "Phoenix voice" for example, it's still Jean, and when Jean is "normal" that doesn't mean she isn't the Phoenix too. "Now and forever", for example, I would say is not literal, since the Phoenix as we know and Jean can be separated, at least to some extent. And there's also the fact that other characters, when hosting the force, have also said that.

See, I read the lines "You are Phoenix, now and forever" and "I'm always Jean, and I'm always the Phoenix" as literal because, when viewed as a whole, Jean's story reflects or illustrates what they convey, i.e., essentially, her overall story has revealed them to be true. As I noted before, even when characters have hosted the Phoenix, such as in Phoenix Endsong and Avengers vs. X-Men, Jean was still shown to possess a singular relationship to and identity as Phoenix. In other instances, such as during Seagle's and Morrison's runs, she was revealed to have been simply harboring or suppressing rather than gaining back this aspect of herself. Anyway, we're both entitled to our interpretations.

I don't think it's that I'm ignoring and picking and choosing. If anything, I think it's exactly because I sort of accept everything that has been published as canon that I think like this, because in my mind the things that are said have to at least be somewhat true or make sense in the context of the story and to why the characters would have said that. So yeah I have trouble making sense out of everything together, because I don't like to just assume that what was said before was wrong based on the new development unless that's what the new story is directly stating.

To be clear, I never said you were "ignoring and picking and choosing." I simply used a hypothetical fan as an example to prove a point: That is that when characters' histories are not taken as a whole, many of the seemingly disparate parts of their stories don't gel or make sense. Moreover, the goal shouldn't be "to just assume that what was said before was wrong based on the new development," but rather to allow what was said before to inform how characters view themselves and how other characters view them. In Jean's case, she has realized and embraced her identity as Phoenix more times than she and others have denied it. Why would she and others repeatedly do this? For Jean, guilt- and trauma-based denial is the most obvious and canonical answer. (It's important to note that trauma is cyclical, as is healing from it.) In the cases of others, a simple lack of understanding of the Phoenix is the most reasonable answer, which makes sense because it is an abstract, primal force.

Like you said, this kinda went in circles, and I probably went on a tangent (depending on how related to the initial discussion you think this is lol) and I don't have anything else to say but I appreciate that you still replied again.

I meant to delete the "circles" bit because it came from me being genuinely tired (work, school, etc.) and growing impatient. I appreciate the discussion. It made me think more deeply not just about your and Havok83's points of view but also about my own.

[Mercury]

Ororo and Jean waltzing with Death and Eternity, respectively. Nobody—and I mean NOBODY—is doing it like them. This is the level of drama and power I expect for their solos.

[Braxxer]

Jean and eternity new romance? Hmm

[Mercury]

Jean and eternity new romance? Hmm

He’s beautiful, too.

[Devaishwarya]

Woah, Silver!!! I needs to stop and admire the scenery in these here parts. Phoenix Jean is EATNG all the right foods.

[Mercury]

Woah, Silver!!! I needs to stop and admire the scenery in these here parts. Phoenix Jean is EATNG all the right foods.

lol. Waiting for details about these solos is torturous.

[Mercury]

Also, to belabor the point I was trying to make in my discussions with Wiccan and Havok83:

Jean’s story in 13 words 🥹 (From X-Men Forever [2001]:

“She had forgotten what it felt like. Or, she hadn’t wanted to remember.”

[SugarMan]

Great news, two of my favs getting solo books. That means they should get focus (even if they are minis) without too much interference from Wolverine, who's in about a hundred different books already, and still manages to be in team books. They could do that for Storm and Jean if they wanted to. It works for Thor and Captain Marvel. I also would like to see Magik get a book, but that would be asking for too much. They wouldn't know what to do with her.