What's up with the pure hatred for Tim Drake nowadays?

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Urban Legends dropped Drake and brought back Tim as Robin before Zdarsky. He even showed up as Robin when the older Robins went to the Lazarus Tournament to talk to Damian.

Bendis YJ brought him back as Robin

[Drako]

Bendis YJ brought him back as Robin

Yeah, Bendis tried the Drake thing and quickly went back to Robin.

[Godlike13]

Reintroduced was probably the wrong word, reestablished is better. The main Batman series firmly reestablished Tim as Robin again.

[James Cameron]

You guys act like Tim was shot in head or being positioned to be their next Lex Luther. The fact is attention paid to Tim is attention denied to others as resources are limited and DC doesn’t like to distract, and in other cases like with Steph it meant attention paid to Tim equaled negative attention given to her. Tim doesn’t exists in a vacuum. Especially when they are trying to split a brand between him. There is a overreaching cause and effect to his pushes and flops.

Tim is representative of the larger issue with a lot of the Batfamily. They're past their heyday and becoming redundant. While Tim is the most prominent out of the ones scary harpy listed, that doesn't mean he alone is the problem. The problem is DC not having faith in their characters and not being willing to give each of them their proper place in the DCU without sidelining others. But Tim's very existence is not the issue. Also, what's wrong with more than one Robin?

[HsssH]

Dilutes brand and causes confusion among more casual readers.

Proper place for some characters is limbo. DC can have faith in whatever they want, there just isn't enough interest for the entire Batfam to have their own ongoings.

[Godlike13]

Tim is representative of the larger issue with a lot of the Batfamily. They're past their heyday and becoming redundant. While Tim is the most prominent out of the ones scary harpy listed, that doesn't mean he alone is the problem. The problem is DC not having faith in their characters and not being willing to give each of them their proper place in the DCU without sidelining others. But Tim's very existence is not the issue. Also, what's wrong with more than one Robin?

What more redundant then having two Robins. They’re becoming redundant because they make each other redundant, stepping on each other toes and copying each other. In Tim’s case he was never the one sideline and they were constantly trying to carve out a place for him. Be it giving him Teen Titans and trying to make him the centerpiece of the Young Justice line, cutting out generations above and below, or making him a second Robin with little care how that could undermined the new Robin or other new characters.
Tim is not like the other characters listed. There was never a plan to not use or shelve him, and they never tried to purposely sabotage his character by making him their next big bad or shooting him in head. And yet those characters still perform better then Tim. So at what point do we question his existence, and ask hey is this actually a character readers still want. Because they are down two comic lines and just put out one of the biggest bat book flops we have seen. Like I said, resources are limited. They can’t afford to support multiple Robin’s equally nor can the market. And every bad Robin project hurts the brand as a whole. There’s no benefit to having two Robins. Especially when it’s pretty clear the future of Robin does not lie with Tim.

[phonogram12]

Look at his sales, his trend, the lack of merchandise, the lack of outside prospects and even interest. You claim Tim’s fanbase is evident but where exactly is it evident. I think it’s pretty evident the problem extends beyond just mismanagement which there is tangible evidence to. While others just try to dismiss everything as hate and don’t really provided any evidence to the contrary.

In re to his sales, I mean, as has been stated over and over and over and over again on these boards, no one liked the creative team. I picked up every issue of Batman Urban Legends he appeared in and loved them, but the creative team on his book made it radioactive. In re to his fanbase, I think it's pretty evident that you are willfully ignoring the fans that post on this very board.

Like, we get it dude, you hate Tim. You really don't have to say any more than that or or willfully ignore things to justify your opinion. I mean, do you seriously think anyone at DC hates Tim enough that they still wouldn't try and make a buck off of him?

[Drako]

In re to his sales, I mean, as has been stated over and over and over and over again on these boards, no one liked the creative team. I picked up every issue of Batman Urban Legends he appeared in and loved them, but the creative team on his book made it radioactive. In re to his fanbase, I think it's pretty evident that you are willfully ignoring the fans that post on this very board.

Like, we get it dude, you hate Tim. You really don't have to say any more than that or or willfully ignore things to justify your opinion.

Fitzmartin wrote both, didn't she?

[phonogram12]

Fitzmartin wrote both, didn't she?

To clarify, I think it's mostly the art that turned people off, tbh. It certainly turned me off.

[Godlike13]

In re to his sales, I mean, as has been stated over and over and over and over again on these boards, no one liked the creative team. I picked up every issue of Batman Urban Legends he appeared in and loved them, but the creative team on his book made it radioactive. In re to his fanbase, I think it's pretty evident that you are willfully ignoring the fans that post on this very board.

Like, we get it dude, you hate Tim. You really don't have to say any more than that or or willfully ignore things to justify your opinion. I mean, do you seriously think anyone at DC hates Tim enough that they still wouldn't try and make a buck off of him?

No one seems to ever like the creative team, but thats just more reason why he’s not selling. That still doesn’t illustrate that he still has an audience or dispute my claims. Repeat I hate Tim all you want, but that still doesn’t prove that there isn’t more of problem then just mismanagement. Sales, trends, other media interest these things have nothing to do with me or my opinion.
I don’t think DC hates Tim, that was never my claim, as they certainly keep trying to make buck with him to no avail. I’m having hard time recalling character’s who’s projects have flopped like projects with Tim have that still hang around like he does. I’d go as to far to say I think Tim is only around because there are people within DC who like Tim. If there other reasons then please give me some evidence to the contrary. Because we certainly can’t look at things like sales, trends, or use outside of comics.

[James Cameron]

What more redundant then having two Robins. They’re becoming redundant because they make each other redundant, stepping on each other toes and copying each other. In Tim’s case he was never the one sideline and they were constantly trying to carve out a place for him. Be it giving him Teen Titans and trying to make him the centerpiece of the Young Justice line, cutting out generations above and below, or making him a second Robin with little care how that could undermined the new Robin or other new characters.
Tim is not like the other characters listed. There was never a plan to not use or shelve him, and they never tried to purposely sabotage his character by making him their next big bad or shooting him in head. And yet those characters still perform better then Tim. So at what point do we question his existence, and ask hey is this actually a character readers still want. Because they are down two comic lines and just put out one of the biggest bat book flops we have seen. Like I said, resources are limited. They can’t afford to support multiple Robin’s equally nor can the market. There’s no benefit to having two Robins. Especially when it’s pretty clear the future of Robin does not lie with Tim.

I mostly agree with you but I don't see how it's not a problem representative of how DC treats a lot of legacy characters. They screwed him up in the 2000s, he was propped up as the Robin and the successor to Bruce, and then Damian was introduced and they didn't know what to do. Between the New 52 and Rebirth he was absolutely sidelined. Damian was heavily propped up in that time compared to him. It's not like that Teen Titans stint in the new 52 was anything groundbreaking compared to when Damian joined the Titans, even Damian got a death and resurrection storyline that was pretty hokey but still epic and cemented him as a permanent figure in the Batfamily, and even in Rebirth we saw what happened to Tim in Tec. Sure, Ric Grayson sucked, but can we say for sure that Tim's recent showings have been any better?

He's served an important role in the Batfamily for years and there is a compulsion to keep him relevant. Like I posted earlier there are so many ideas of what could be done with the character, but since this is a character whose existence is difficult to justify outside of being Robin, what can be done? Is your suggestion to do away with him entirely? Is he going to be in the way no matter what?

I think it's unfair to say that characters like Damian are sidelined in favor of Tim when one of the two clearly gets the better showings most of the time and given Damian's recent prevalence in outside media that isn't going to change anytime soon. At the very least it just looks like editorial does not want to do away with Tim, they just don't know where his proper place should be.

I asked what's wrong with more than one Robin because Tim as Robin is one of many options for him that could work if done well.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

To clarify, I think it's mostly the art that turned people off, tbh. It certainly turned me off.

The writing was bad too. It felt so tumblr and fanficy. Even with the new art it still sold poorly

[Godlike13]

I mostly agree with you but I don't see how it's not a problem representative of how DC treats a lot of legacy characters. They screwed him up in the 2000s, he was propped up as the Robin and the successor to Bruce, and then Damian was introduced and they didn't know what to do. Between the New 52 and Rebirth he was absolutely sidelined. Damian was heavily propped up in that time compared to him. It's not like that Teen Titans stint in the new 52 was anything groundbreaking compared to when Damian joined the Titans, even Damian got a death and resurrection storyline that was pretty hokey but still epic and cemented him as a permanent figure in the Batfamily, and even in Rebirth we saw what happened to Tim in Tec. Sure, Ric Grayson sucked, but can we say for sure that Tim's recent showings have been any better?

He's served an important role in the Batfamily for years and there is a compulsion to keep him relevant. Like I posted earlier there are so many ideas of what could be done with the character, but since this is a character whose existence is difficult to justify outside of being Robin, what can be done? Is your suggestion to do away with him entirely? Is he going to be in the way no matter what?

I think it's unfair to say that characters like Damian are sidelined in favor of Tim when one of the two clearly gets the better showings most of the time and given Damian's recent prevalence in outside media that isn't going to change anytime soon. At the very least it just looks like editorial does not want to do away with Tim, they just don't know where his proper place should be.

I asked what's wrong with more than one Robin because Tim as Robin is one of many options for him that could work if done well.

What was the between of the New 52 and Rebirth. DC You? I believe just before they relaunched Teen Titans again with Tim around the same time as Grayson. Understand The New 52 Teen Titans was intended to be a much bigger deal then it turned out to be. It was suppose to be the centerpiece and flagship of their Young Justice line. They even wiped out generations for it. As Tims generation didn't follow the logic of the new 52. While yes Damian got his first series with DC You, which was quite good to boot, it was short lived and by Rebirth he was out of the Bat office inheriting the shambles of Teen Titans while Tim was back in a Robin suit next to Batman in Detective Comics. Then they worked on transitioning him into the next Lex Luthor while Tim was given to probably DC's highest paid creator to again try to launch a line around. Part of my point is look at Ric Grayson, look at Glass' Teen Titans. Tim is hardly the first character to be mismanaged. Yet Dick and Damian still prove to be generally popular. Bad showing happen, part of a characters marketability is remaining viable even through bad showings. Thats what sets characters like Dick and Damian apart from Tim currently. Leaving one to question maybe its more then that. That even if Tim just got a decent book again, all still might not be alright.

Tim served an important role, but time moves on. He doesn't serves that purpose anymore. A new Robin came into the picture and they failed to transition Tim into something else. Which sucks for Tim but shouldn't cascade into Robin, imagine how Tim would have faired if they kept trying to make Dick Robin again while Tim was coming up. That wouldn't have bode well. Instead of focusing on how they can make Damian be the best Robin he can be they instead constantly have to figure out how they make both Tim and Damian fit. Thats just not productive. Maybe in a perfect world they could do it, but its been almost a decade now and it hasn't really befitted either. And at this point whats even the future with Tim as Robin.

[ayanestar]

To clarify, I think it's mostly the art that turned people off, tbh. It certainly turned me off.

No, people hated everything about it, but to be fair, Fitzmartin mostly ruined her goodwill with fans because of the YJ Dark Crisis tie-ins she wrote.

[skyvolt2000]

I asked what's wrong with more than one Robin because Tim as Robin is one of many options for him that could work if done well.

Unless DC is going to take a page out of Marvel with Miles and Peter (which is UNLIKELY)-Tim as Robin with Damian is an issue of sorts.

Yeah you could run with two Robins and milk the urban legend that there is more than one Robin that seems to change height at any given time.


Now in Fitzmartin's case-it wasn't so much a bad run-because it did get some positive views on Amazon. You have folks reading these books as the FIRST time they have encountered the characters.

So to the long time Tim fans-they are turned off by the stories. While new readers are not.

Because for too many of these folks the gap between stories or the quality of stories have not been there.

And there is no Priest, Fabian N, Chuck Dixon, McDuffie or Morrison or Wolfman around that can fix it.
Or someone like Al Ewing is never going to get access to the character to pull an Immortal Hulk or X-Men Red (AKA Storm).
Or you got sorry editorial that doesn't want to do the WORK. Where you see a Moon Knight that gets 50 shots and finally got it right.