What's up with the pure hatred for Tim Drake nowadays?

[scary harpy]

The 52/Post-Infinite Crisis era was a good time for character reinventions and reinvigorations. I feel like these days not many have stuck. It's hard to predict what will stay mostly permanent in the status quo nowadays. For Tim, I say they should be as ballsy and wildly out there as possible, make a real effort to define him without banking on nostalgia, and if it doesn't work, write him out for a while and try again later.

And the explosion you hear will be erupting from these message boards...

[ayanestar]

They canceled his title and put him into an isolated event. His publication took a nose dive during Tim’s series. Tim’s pushes failure is what lead to Damian’s new series. It wasn’t never the plan, but a hard pivot after stuff with Tim flopped and it came out Gunn wanted to use Damian. His sidelining didn’t last long only because it quickly became apparent the whole idea was mistake. But let’s not pretend it wasn’t what it was.

This is another reason why they need to figure out something for Tim because as soon as that movie gets released all the attention is going to be on Damian anyway. Nobody will care about that other kid running around as Robin in the comics. It was wild how they even sidelined Damian to begin with, he was doing really well for himself, and then suddenly he was gone. Hell, they even tried to turn him into a villain for no reason.

[Oberon]

No, Spoiler and her relationship with Tim dates back to the early 90s. They first kissed in Robin #5 in 1994 and after years of will they/won't they drama became a couple in Robin #56 in 1998. They were together until she was killed off during the War Games story in 2004, when the Robin series was in the 130s. Titans Tomorrow came out a year later in 2005. Steph was brought back soon after due to fan backlash at how horribly her death was handled, though they wouldn't get back together due to DC pushing Tim in a darker and angrier direction and him blaming her for things Batman told her to do. When her Nu52 version was introduced in Batman Eternal in 2014, her old relationship with Tim was rekindled, and they stayed a couple until 2021 when DC decided he was suddenly bi and he suddenly started treating her like she was worth less than garbage.

Thank you for this correction.
I'm more curious about why the put Tim with Bette for that Tomorrow storyline.
Especially since they had already paired him with a blonde Batfamily type.

I will never understand DC editiorial.

[James Cameron]

Thank you for this correction.
I'm more curious about why the put Tim with Bette for that Tomorrow storyline.
Especially since they had already paired him with a blonde Batfamily type.

I will never understand DC editiorial.

IIRC, she left Future Tim because he became a tyrant and a fascist.
So maybe it was to hammer home the fact that this Tim Drake was fundamentally flawed, his own true love left him because of his actions.

[Jackalope89]

I never hated Tim, but I've never liked him either. He is simply "there" for me. And his most memorable version for most, was actually when it was Jason Todd, but had the name "Tim Drake" in BTAS. Comics version is, well, rudderless. At best, writers try and steal from other characters to slap it onto Tim, for it to fail. At worse, well, look at the Fitzmartin run. So much wrong there.

Tim has been pushed in a ton of directions, at times, at the cost of hurting other characters (like the Robin run where Damian got pushed out). He has no real direction, every writer goes somewhere else with him, his characterization is random as hell, and his popularity is simply not what it was in the 1990s. Needs to be relegated to either background character, or shelved until a REAL direction that's thought out for him comes along. And I do NOT mean fanon. I'm not saying 20 years, like Jason did when he was dead, but some time away from the series would not hurt right now. Not anymore than a terrible story would, again.

[ComicNoobie]

I don't hate Tim but I lost interest in him when he dumped Steph and treated her like dirt. Haven't enjoyed him since. It made me question if I was ever really a fan or just liked him with other characters like Stephanie and YJ.

[Oberon]

IIRC, she left Future Tim because he became a tyrant and a fascist.
So maybe it was to hammer home the fact that this Tim Drake was fundamentally flawed, his own true love left him because of his actions.

Sure looks like that. There are so many 'robins' that at least one has to be 'flawed' or have dramatic changes/revelations in order to have stories.

Me thinks they just have too many. I personally could do without Damien but then it's either Red Hood, Nightwing or ... Tim?

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Thank you for this correction.
I'm more curious about why the put Tim with Bette for that Tomorrow storyline.
Especially since they had already paired him with a blonde Batfamily type.

I will never understand DC editiorial.

I think Johns thought Bette was Steph

[Oberon]

I think Johns thought Bette was Steph

I just wonder why Bette seems so unusable as a character.

I've heard how Spoiler/Steph enters the picture way back, but I still think she's another kind of Bat-girl / Betty/Bette in some ways.

DC's problem is it just keeps reinventing characters to gain some new/audience but don't think far enough into their futures. So redundancy is bound to happen.

[James Cameron]

Sure looks like that. There are so many 'robins' that at least one has to be 'flawed' or have dramatic changes/revelations in order to have stories.

Me thinks they just have too many. I personally could do without Damien but then it's either Red Hood, Nightwing or ... Tim?

All Robins except for Tim are at this point too integral to Batman lore to ever leave. Dick is the Robin that graduated and became his own hero. Jason is the anti-hero and Bruce's greatest failure. Damian is the biological son raised by assassins and the hereditary successor of the mantle of Batman. The premises alone for each of those three make them too important to not be a lasting part of Batman lore for decades to come. Tim was supposed to be the everyman. Sure he's a genius, but the idea was that he's a typical teenager without all this trauma to motivate his crimefighting. But that got lost somewhere in the 2000s and has never really come back, he was reduced to an archetype. Everyone in the Batfamily at some point went through major development that became the new status quo, but when DC tried to do it with Tim, they missed the mark on why he was great to begin with. They erased his biggest quality (his 'normal life' and supporting cast) to make him Bruce's true successor, and that all fell apart when Morrison created Damian, and since then they have never been able to course correct. But I wonder if they hadn't changed anything, especially with Identity Crisis, would he be any less unpopular today?
Because how far can you take an everyman character after 15 years or so? How do you give longevity to the one Batfam character who's supposed to be a pretty normal guy outside of his vigilante persona?

[marvelprince]

They canceled his title and put him into an isolated event. His publication took a nose dive during Tim’s series. Tim’s pushes failure is what lead to Damian’s new series. It wasn’t never the plan, but a hard pivot after stuff with Tim flopped and it came out Gunn wanted to use Damian. His sidelining didn’t last long only because it quickly became apparent the whole idea was mistake. But let’s not pretend it wasn’t what it was.

Damian's book was not cancelled, they chose to end it to launched Batman and Robin. Damian has had a complete narrative arc that was virtually uninterrupted since he popped back up after Alfred died. Even this stuff with them pivoting due to Gunn is so provably false cause these things were in the works before Gunn even announced the movie. The movie announcement was Jan 2023, we'd already had Robin, Shadow War, Batman vs Robin by then. So somehow in the middle of all of this they went screw Damian lets go with Tim, but they don't interrupt anything with Damian, Tim never featured in any of these stories that Damian was in and somehow he sidelined him? WTF?

His publication took a nose dive during Tim’s series.

During the Tim Robin series Damian appeared as a lead in two events and the co-lead of the Batman and Robin series. Which directly followed his Robin series that was not cancelled, Williamson just wanted to transition to next phase of Damian's story.

[marvelprince]

I never hated Tim, but I've never liked him either. He is simply "there" for me. And his most memorable version for most, was actually when it was Jason Todd, but had the name "Tim Drake" in BTAS. Comics version is, well, rudderless. At best, writers try and steal from other characters to slap it onto Tim, for it to fail. At worse, well, look at the Fitzmartin run. So much wrong there.

Tim has been pushed in a ton of directions, at times, at the cost of hurting other characters (like the Robin run where Damian got pushed out). He has no real direction, every writer goes somewhere else with him, his characterization is random as hell, and his popularity is simply not what it was in the 1990s. Needs to be relegated to either background character, or shelved until a REAL direction that's thought out for him comes along. And I do NOT mean fanon. I'm not saying 20 years, like Jason did when he was dead, but some time away from the series would not hurt right now. Not anymore than a terrible story would, again.

Its this zero sum attitude that really annoys me these days. Tim existing in a book does not mean Damian has been sidelined. Its a dozen Robin's and a million Batman titles. There is more than enough room for every Robin. Damian has actually been sidelined in the books before, but it was due to the writers not wanting to use him not cause Tim Drake exists. Damian has had the care and attention of multiple writers for years now telling a story of him finding himself, redefining his relationship with Batman, establishing him as his own character more than ever and somehow fans still find a way to get mad at Tim. That's not being sidelined. What did Tim have in the same time? Two awful and insulting attempts at a solo and some backups.

[marvelprince]

And that's more than a little scary.

There are real problems in the world...real suffering. I go to comics and this comic message boards to escape.

At the end of the day even though I find the negativity overwhelming at times a lot of the hate of Tim is because they're fans of the other Robin's and feel as though Tim's existence takes something away from their favs. Which doesn't make sense cause they're all different characters. I may like Tim more than Damian but I didn't get upset when Damian got his own series. Good for that character. More exposure means more time to establish what makes each character unique. And its not like the same story could or should be told with Tim anyway. So due to all of Damian's "sidelining" he's got some rivals, a relationship, some unique interests and a new dynamic with Bruce that's different from all the other Robins. Tim got Bernard. I think if anyone should feel upset in this scenario its Tim fans.

[scary harpy]

I just wonder why Bette seems so unusable as a character.

I've heard how Spoiler/Steph enters the picture way back, but I still think she's another kind of Bat-girl / Betty/Bette in some ways.

DC's problem is it just keeps reinventing characters to gain some new/audience but don't think far enough into their futures. So redundancy is bound to happen.

You're not the only one wondering about Bette.

Many of us would like something good done with this character.

[scary harpy]

The 52/Post-Infinite Crisis era was a good time for character reinventions and reinvigorations. I feel like these days not many have stuck. It's hard to predict what will stay mostly permanent in the status quo nowadays. For Tim, I say they should be as ballsy and wildly out there as possible, make a real effort to define him without banking on nostalgia, and if it doesn't work, write him out for a while and try again later.

True, that would have been a good time for character reinventions and invigorations.

Now, we have to wait for the next cash-grabbing, half-arsed 'reboot' of the DCU to see how TPTB are going to defecate all over our favorite characters. Fortunately(?), we probably won't have to wait that long.