Thoughts on the misogyny behind limiting female characters' power levels?

[Arachne]

I'm sure there has been misogyny in the past, and it's probably not entirely gone, yet. Like others have said, however, unequally powered characters are a serious problem for team books regardless of the gender of the characters.

I really wish more writers would take that into account.

[ChronoRogue]

In order to write Jean and Ororo as supremely powerful beings writers may need to completely seperate them from most X-teams otherwise you run into "Batman in JL" problem where the other members of the team, in this case Jean and Ororo, are dumbed down to make Batman, or in this case the rest of the X-men, look good. So there are two options, they either go solo which doesn't last more then 10 or 20 issues nowadays unless you're Wolverine, or my preferred choice which is them being put in teams with characters of similar power levels. Imagine an Annihilators book with Jean as the leader. I don't know how it would sell but I know I would read the hell out of that.

Oooh, I really like this idea. It makes sense to pair characters up of similar power levels. Or at least if they're not as powerful, at least provide unique utility (ala a teleporter or telepath).

Different books can have different scopes like (a) street-level, security work or regional threats, (b) domestic superheroes, (c) international threats and (d) cosmic teams.

Just as an example of what I mean regarding this type of structure and consideration. low-key a wishlist

Security team (X-Force or X-Factor) of Wolverine, Gambit, Nightcrawler, Psylocke (Kwannon), Shadowcat, and Prodigy

Domestic team (X-Men) of Cyclops, Warpath, Rogue, Emma Frost, Cecilia Reyes, Jubilee, Hellion and Ms Marvel.

International team (X-Corp) of Captain Britian (Betsy), Monet, Colossus, Oya, Sunfire, Rictor, and Sunspot.

Cosmic team (Immortal or Red) of Jean Grey, Polaris, Iceman, Storm, Exodus, Xorn, Magik and Legion.

I do have a slight concern of maybe it unintentionally restricting roster creativity or killing the chance of interactions between characters of different power-scaling but I do think it's worth it to consider the type of book and antagonists you want the team to tackle.

[borkbork]

I totally agree, great post. You can probably throw Psylocke and Shadowkat in as other examples of popular female heroes with physical powers.

I thought of Kate's power as more passive until recently- give her bruiser powers ala the Shroud, though-- that'd be awesome.

[Doom'nGloom]

Oooh, I really like this idea. It makes sense to pair characters up of similar power levels. Or at least if they're not as powerful, at least provide unique utility (ala a teleporter or telepath).

Different books can have different scopes like (a) street-level, security work or regional threats, (b) domestic superheroes, (c) international threats and (d) cosmic teams.

Just as an example of what I mean regarding this type of structure and consideration. low-key a wishlist

Security team (X-Force or X-Factor) of Wolverine, Gambit, Nightcrawler, Psylocke (Kwannon), Shadowcat, and Prodigy

Domestic team (X-Men) of Cyclops, Warpath, Rogue, Emma Frost, Cecilia Reyes, Jubilee, Hellion and Ms Marvel.

International team (X-Corp) of Captain Britian (Betsy), Monet, Colossus, Oya, Sunfire, Rictor, and Sunspot.

Cosmic team (Immortal or Red) of Jean Grey, Polaris, Iceman, Storm, Exodus, Xorn, Magik and Legion.

I do have a slight concern of maybe it unintentionally restricting roster creativity or killing the chance of interactions between characters of different power-scaling but I do think it's worth it to consider the type of book and antagonists you want the team to tackle.

Holy cow! Now you made me sad that this isn't the reality. As you said it may restrict interactions but this way stronger characters doesn't get to steal attention from weaker characters or they don't get dumbed down to even the playing field. Each team fights baddies suited for them. The last team in a cosmic horror setting would slap so hard.

[mugiwara]

Even in omega class, they are not all equal. Phoenix Force Jean and Legion are magnitudes above the others and would have to be nerfed too.

[Galerion]

I'm sure there has been misogyny in the past, and it's probably not entirely gone, yet. Like others have said, however, unequally powered characters are a serious problem for team books regardless of the gender of the characters.

I really wish more writers would take that into account.

I mean good writers do. Just look at the current Avengers. Scarlet Witch, Thor, Captain Marvel, Vision, Black Panther, Iron Man and Captain America. The divide couldn't be any bigger here. You have people with godlike powers and then it goes all the way to people who don't even have any superpowers at all. Yet MacKay is able to make it work but then he is a damn good writer who knows what he needs to do to accomplish it.

I mean I agree with the statement that OP characters are a significant problem in a team setting. This is even more the case with the X-Men since many Avengers get solo books. Like there is no real need for characters like Scarlet Witch or Thor to fight some cosmic entity in the Avengers book while the rest are watching when they have solo books where they can crazy to their hearts content. But most X-Men don't have that luxury. The only consistent solo book is about a guy who has knives in his hands so obviously you have to be a bit more creative in how you actually manage all your characters.

Still I stand by my statement that a good writer is able to make it work. Some writers just should be be more honest with themselves and just say that they are simply not capable of pulling it off. There is no shame in knowing and accepting your own limitations. But reading a supposed team book where a single character is stealing the spotlight all the time while the rest are only getting scraps at most is really infuriating and it unfortunately has happened so many times in the past already.

[Rift]

Jean and Ororo have popularity privilege. Meanwhile, Hellion has to deal with constant nerfing - like there was this whole little era where he only showed up as someone who got knocked out in the background by some big threat. Even though his powers could potentially (and have) granted him molecular combustion, he's a master strategist, and can move at twice the speed of sound

Really, when you think about women in power, you should stop and think, "What about Hellion? How does this affect Hellion?"

[ChronoRogue]

Holy cow! Now you made me sad that this isn't the reality. As you said it may restrict interactions but this way stronger characters doesn't get to steal attention from weaker characters or they don't get dumbed down to even the playing field. Each team fights baddies suited for them. The last team in a cosmic horror setting would slap so hard.

Hopefully one of these days, an editor might choose to structure it that way. Would be interesting if it helps narratives feel more cohesive, considering the antagonists should feel more like a balanced threat. (in theory)

[Hakka84]

Oooh, I really like this idea. It makes sense to pair characters up of similar power levels. Or at least if they're not as powerful, at least provide unique utility (ala a teleporter or telepath).

Different books can have different scopes like (a) street-level, security work or regional threats, (b) domestic superheroes, (c) international threats and (d) cosmic teams.

Just as an example of what I mean regarding this type of structure and consideration. low-key a wishlist

Security team (X-Force or X-Factor) of Wolverine, Gambit, Nightcrawler, Psylocke (Kwannon), Shadowcat, and Prodigy

Domestic team (X-Men) of Cyclops, Warpath, Rogue, Emma Frost, Cecilia Reyes, Jubilee, Hellion and Ms Marvel.

International team (X-Corp) of Captain Britian (Betsy), Monet, Colossus, Oya, Sunfire, Rictor, and Sunspot.

Cosmic team (Immortal or Red) of Jean Grey, Polaris, Iceman, Storm, Exodus, Xorn, Magik and Legion.

I do have a slight concern of maybe it unintentionally restricting roster creativity or killing the chance of interactions between characters of different power-scaling but I do think it's worth it to consider the type of book and antagonists you want the team to tackle.

Amen. This how you end up with editorial thinking characters like Angel being dumb and eternally on the sideline. Of course he's worthless, if he's in a team with Jean and Storm. Place him in a more street-like team, and he's the Falcon of the X-Men (which he actually is, he is the mutant version - and precursor - of the Falcon).

[salarta]

It certainly explains Lorna’s treatment over time as punishment for daring to be more feminist on introduction for her time than other women around.

[The Thunderbird]

The powerlevels Phoenix demonstrates do feel like a concern to me. I don't mind Jean getting cosmic feats but my main concern would be writers and editors finding her too powerful and getting rid of her. I know, there are ways to tone her down. An old Excalibur comic once established that the Phoenix Force draws its energy from future generations and using that power denies them the life force they need. If Jean uses that energy too much then it risks slowing or stopping evolution which goes against the Phoenix's main goal of protecting the course of evolution. It also seems that Jean and Phoenix are at their strongest in the White Hot Room but that may be because of the White Hot Room's nature as a realm of creativity. I mean even Mother Righteous just tried to take advantage of that to try and become a Dominion. She can also go back to regular Jean at some point.

Also other heroes had their own transcendent moments and it wouldn't be fair to get rid of Jean because of this. I mean Storm now is currently travelling through higher realms in her quest to bring Magneto back to the realm of the living and has immense potential as Hadari Yao. Scarlet Witch affected the whole omniverse with her House of M era spell. Not to mention Thor's regular flings with the Thorforce/Odinforce and Hulk's connection to the One Below All aka the One Above All's evil self.

[kevlon]

Recent writers generally ignore it are ignorant to characters pasts. Firestar for example has always been the most powerful New Warrior. She was even heralded as the most powerful mutant on the planet by none other than Agatha Harkness. Current writers such as Duggan either have not bothered to do their homework or just don't care about continuity.

[Gray Lensman]

It certainly explains Lorna’s treatment over time as punishment for daring to be more feminist on introduction for her time than other women around.

Lorna also has the issue of having the same powerset as someone who was a long running villain - and you can't have a team based hero be more powerful than the solo villain - otherwise it's a really short fight. Cyclops will never be on the same level as Vulcan for the same reason - Vulcan has to be able to challenge the team as a whole, meaning his power levels need to be higher for narrative purposes.

[GoingGreen]

Lorna also has the issue of having the same powerset as someone who was a long running villain - and you can't have a team based hero be more powerful than the solo villain - otherwise it's a really short fight. Cyclops will never be on the same level as Vulcan for the same reason - Vulcan has to be able to challenge the team as a whole, meaning his power levels need to be higher for narrative purposes.

Can you please explain, then, Phoenix, Storm, and Iceman?

[davetvs]

I mean this thread is literally about certain versions of Jean and Storm being too powerful for a team book and Iceman has been purposefully nerfed for most of his publication history, if you want to frame his underachieving nature that way.