Thoughts on the misogyny behind limiting female characters' power levels?

[Mercury]

I've always found this excerpt from the 1979 The Comics Journal interview with Chris Claremont (first image) maddening. Claremont and Cockrum always intended for Jean to be the "first female cosmic hero" (Phoenix: The Untold Story, second image) but were essentially forced to "cut her back to roughly where Storm is" due to an explicit or implicit editorial mandate that conveyed a female character could not be cosmic or, to quote Claremont, "a cosmic force." I don't think enough attention and focus is paid to the impetus behind this decision. (Kitty<3Piotr does bring it up often, though.)

What are your thoughts on this decision, the impetus behind it, and its overall implications for super-powered female characters? Also, what are your thoughts about male characters, such as Franklin Richards, being allowed to retain and even continuously increase their power levels while characters like Jean—"a primal force second only to that of the Creator"—and Ororo—"a Goddess"—are continuously reined in? Lastly, is there a space for transcendentally powerful characters on superhero teams?

[Devaishwarya]

Well...it was clearly a "product of its time" of the Industry and the thinking of certain men who ran it. And while misogyny still exists today in many different forms and levels, some subtle and others quite obvious...there are many more women and men in the Industry today who know better and are doing better especially where it comes to the women of Marvel.

That said...One key factor a lot of people tend to disregard about the female X-Men that extends even to today...and this was very deliberate on Chris' part back then (Perhaps in response to Shooter's edicts?) and throughout his 16 years plus run...they've always been far stronger than the men, their powers more broad-spectrum and diverse. Case in point--even without powers Storm was still the very best choice to lead the X-Men at the time. He may have been editorially "forced" to downplay his female characters but he always found other ways to elevate them at the same time.

[Wolverine12]

I think the part of the article you posted answer's your question, it was a product of the time. It doesn't really seem to be an "editorial edict" in modern X-Men comics. Look at Storm under Ewing's pen, she is practically unbeatable (not a bad thing), and Jean under Gillen especially in A.X.E. was supremely powerful. Let's just be honest, back then it was unheard of for a "girl to beat a boy" at any physical contest. All that being said Claremont still managed to make Jean a cosmic figure during TDPS. She freaking ate a planet!

[Confuzzled]

A case of power level misogyny could be made against Lee in the 60's with his scant superheroines having dubious powers at best (invisibility, shrinking, telekinesis for easier housekeeping) but as Dev said, Claremont always ensured his heroines were constantly functioning at Goddess Mode.

Heck, even his rationale for scaling back Phoenix's powers made sense. He had said he originally wanted a Thor-level superheroine but he already had that in Storm. With Phoenix, he essentially ended up with a Galactus level heroine. And there's a reason Galactus isn't a regular member on any title.

[Nicoclaws]

Apart from Franklin, whose power comes and goes, and maybe Sentry who still had restrictions, I cannot think of many all-powerful male heroes in Marvel. Maybe Blue Marvel ?

[DragonsChi]

The character’s sex/gender really isn’t the issue. OP characters either always get written out, depowered, written in away that makes them look incompetent or given a weakness they never had before just so they can be written in a story believably.

Examples: Professor X, Iceman, Gambit , Synch, Kid Omega, and many others.

[davetvs]

Apart from Franklin, whose power comes and goes, and maybe Sentry who still had restrictions, I cannot think of many all-powerful male heroes in Marvel. Maybe Blue Marvel ?

Thor probably counts. I would argue Hulk too, but there are a lot of fans of both characters who don't like them in books like Avengers because they tend to be nerfed to feel like more realistic teammates. Jean and Storm have the same problem, depending on who's writing them. They were conceived as team franchise characters, not solo heroes, so it doesn't make sense to keep them at super omega unbeatable goddess level when they're supposed to be fighting alongside the likes of Wolverine and Cyclops.

When writers do find ways to Jean and/or Storm to lose, their fans riot. This board is a perfect example.

[Zelena]

Thor probably counts. I would argue Hulk too, but there are a lot of fans of both characters who don't like them in books like Avengers because they tend to be nerfed to feel like more realistic teammates. Jean and Storm have the same problem, depending on who's writing them. They were conceived as team franchise characters, not solo heroes, so it doesn't make sense to keep them at super omega unbeatable goddess level when they're supposed to be fighting alongside the likes of Wolverine and Cyclops.

When writers do find ways to Jean and/or Storm to lose, their fans riot. This board is a perfect example.

I agree. I think it’s less a problem of misogyny and more “the difficulties to integrate a super powerful character in a team in a way that feels natural”…

I remember having read about the first Excalibur team that the author must always “cut Rachel’s wings” to avoid making her teamates look useless…

[Mercury]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses! I'm itching to respond to you all, but I have to finish up a paper for school that's I've been putting back for too long. :cries: I'll respond soon!

[ChildOfTheAtom]

but aren’t female X-MEN usually stronger?

[ChronoRogue]

but aren’t female X-MEN usually stronger?

For the most part, except when you get to the omegas. There are lot more male mutant omegas than female.

Jean, Hope, Storm compared to Magneto, Legion, Elixir, Iceman, Exodus, Proteus, Kid Omega. I'm counting Legion since he was prominent in Way of X, Proteus is part of the The Five and Exodus seemed to turn over a new leaf.

Not including guys like Mister M, Vulcan, Jaime Braddock since none of them properly "served" as X-Men, also Franklin Richards depending on what they do with him.

how did he forget to include Rachel in here when she was one of the first named IDK

It's not a big deal for a lot of people, but Hickman didn't seem to understand or care about the optics of racial, ethnic and sexual diversity being important in positions of power. Though he was slightly better in terms of the council for political power.

[davetvs]

but aren’t female X-MEN usually stronger?

Usually.

O5: Jean
Krakoan Rescue Team: Vulcan*
ANAD: Storm
Outback: Storm
X-Factor: Jean
New Mutants: Magik
Excalibur: Rachel
Generation X: Arguably Monet, arguably Synch*
New X-Men: Jean
X-Treme X-Men: Storm
New X-Men: Academy X: Elixir*
Uncanny X-Force: Psylocke (Betsy)
Extinction Team: Hope
Uncanny Avengers v.1: Scarlet Witch
Krakoan X-Men: Jean
Krakoan X-Men v.2: Jean
Krakoan X-Factor: Rachel

etc.

[Grunty]

Thor probably counts. I would argue Hulk too, but there are a lot of fans of both characters who don't like them in books like Avengers because they tend to be nerfed to feel like more realistic teammates. Jean and Storm have the same problem, depending on who's writing them. They were conceived as team franchise characters, not solo heroes, so it doesn't make sense to keep them at super omega unbeatable goddess level when they're supposed to be fighting alongside the likes of Wolverine and Cyclops.

When writers do find ways to Jean and/or Storm to lose, their fans riot. This board is a perfect example.

The "gameplay balance" so to speak in team books is certainly an important factor to consider. If one character could potentialy resolve all problems with their powers alone, they become a problem for the writer they will then want to sidestep or remove as much as possible.

But while on the subject of Wolverine and Cyclops.

It might be quite telling that the most popular male X-men and the one who consistently and successfull carries solo titles since the 1980's has powers which are extremely limited in scope.

He can heal super fast, has keen animal senses and there are sharp knives comming out between his knucles. The only extend by which he can manipulate the world around him ends at the tip of said circa 30 centimeter long knives.

So on paper this character should not be considered on par with people who can manipulate magnetic fields, turn their body into ice and manipulate it, read and manipulate minds at great distances, controll weather on a global or even cosmic scale, move object with their minds reaching in size from school busses or individual pieces of sand, have the physical strength to lift and throw tanks, run or even walk at speed close to breaking the sound barrier, skin that is impervious to large calibre gun rounds, turn their bodies into minature suns, etc.

And yet the universe will bend over backwards not only to keep him relevant to the team and present him as equal to the above mentioned characters, but even make sure that often enough he will be important to saving the day.

All because of the above mentioned "gameplay balance", but also because of popularity which in part seems to stem exactly from the fact that his powers are limited scope and force him to constantly engage in physical action with enemies.
Which in turn is one notable main appeal of the whole super hero genre (compare Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, The Hulk, Spiderman, Daredevil, etc. and how they deal with enemies)

And even in the context of the X-men as team book it's telling that the majority of the popular male team members have powers which are rather limited in scope.

Cyclops, Beast, Angel, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Collosus, Bishop, all of them have very limited powers. Even Cable, one of four X-men to carry an ongoing solo for a while, is primarily relying on brawn, brain and weapons, because most of the time his actual super powers are too dangerous to unleash.

So overall there is a case to be made that the bigger the scope and potential of a character's powers is, the more bothersome they seem become for writers to handle in the context of the expected and popular super hero stories, especially on a team book. Whereas more limited or restrained powers will make it easier and therefor increase the chance of being favored by writers.

The problem for female characters in this regard is that they are traditional much more likely to be given metaphysical manipulation powers in order to contribute to actions, fights or other situation from a "safe" distance, rather than have powers which force them to engage enemies in hand to hand fights.

And these powers in turn tend to be a lot more open to the top, which is where writers will often push them, at which point however power creep will set in and writers will seek out ways to "nerf" them for the plot to work like normal.

In this regard Rogue is perhaps one of the most fortunate popular female X-men.

The permanent Ms. Marvel/now Wonderman powers allow her to engage in good old fisticuffs with most types of enemies akin to Collosus, while her ability to absorb other characters life force and temporarily copy their powers give her an "ace in the hole" as long as writers will frequently limit her ability to recall them afterwards.

So regardless of how much writers "nerf" her she will always be easy to writer and can be re-empowered as the plot needs.

[davetvs]

I totally agree, great post. You can probably throw Psylocke and Shadowkat in as other examples of popular female heroes with physical powers.

[Doom'nGloom]

In order to write Jean and Ororo as supremely powerful beings writers may need to completely seperate them from most X-teams otherwise you run into "Batman in JL" problem where the other members of the team, in this case Jean and Ororo, are dumbed down to make Batman, or in this case the rest of the X-men, look good. So there are two options, they either go solo which doesn't last more then 10 or 20 issues nowadays unless you're Wolverine, or my preferred choice which is them being put in teams with characters of similar power levels. Imagine an Annihilators book with Jean as the leader. I don't know how it would sell but I know I would read the hell out of that.