Thoughts on the misogyny behind limiting female characters' power levels?

[Havok83]

but aren’t female X-MEN usually stronger?

thats true. Villians aside, the female X-men members are generally more powerful than their male counterparts

Lorna also has the issue of having the same powerset as someone who was a long running villain - and you can't have a team based hero be more powerful than the solo villain - otherwise it's a really short fight. Cyclops will never be on the same level as Vulcan for the same reason - Vulcan has to be able to challenge the team as a whole, meaning his power levels need to be higher for narrative purposes.

the part where that argument falls apart though is that Magneto hasnt been used as an X-men villian in almost 20 years (the very end of Xmen Blue aside) and even then he was rarely facing Lorna as an opponent

Id also disagree bc the very first time that Phoenix faced Xmen in Claremont's run, he bested her even though she was arguably more powerful. Most Xmen are more powerful than Mystique and she's had no trouble taking them on either. Its all about the writing and finding ways to make the victor smarter and not relying on power strength as an obvious win

[Gray Lensman]

Can you please explain, then, Phoenix, Storm, and Iceman?

None of them have the same powerset as a long running antagonist. Phoenix is its' own can of worms - often an adversary, and the last time Jean embraced the Flaming Cosmic Turkey she got shelved for over a decade.

[Havok83]

None of them have the same powerset as a long running antagonist. Phoenix is its' own can of worms - often an adversary, and the last time Jean embraced the Flaming Cosmic Turkey she got shelved for over a decade.

I mean Jean has TP/TK and is very powerful without even bonding with the Phoenix Force. There are several villians with that in their powerset such as Exodus, Sinister, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, Maddie, etc...

[Gray Lensman]

I mean Jean has TP/TK and is very powerful without even bonding with the Phoenix Force. There are several villians with that in their powerset such as Exodus, Sinister, Cassandra Nova, Apocalypse, Maddie, etc...

It's a matter of degree - Jean on her own is typically the most powerful member of whatever team she is on. Which by itself isn't a problem, as someone is going to be the most powerful member of the team anyways. But add in what the Phoenix has become, and now she's more powerful than the entire rest of the team combined, maybe several times over. It's hard to keep writing believable challenges with that level of disparity. Either the rest of the team becomes constant rescue-bait, or the power player is constantly nerfed by some plot contrivance.

[Hakka84]

Still, is an issue with decades of writers coming and upping the power levels, to the point that you open an 80s or 90s comic and go "wait, is this even the same character?".
Even Dark Phoenix (I mean) by Claremont could be taken on by the X-Men (no hope of winning, obvs, but there's was a change to last some minute) - and she was clearly the most powerful mutant for a lot of time.
You get back and read Storm struggling with controlling a storm, or keeping an attack going. Now she could change the whole climate of the planet all the while reading a book and cooking at the same time. (not a dig to Storm, I pick her as an example as Omega mutant). Iceman is on the same level, but at least he got the in-canon explanation of not tapping into his potential/holding back bla blah. Still, you got someone who barely struggled to ice up a building to someone who can turn all Earth into a new ace age in a minute.
You have Magneto (who doesn't have the excuse of being a teen when he was introduced) who barely floated himself, now he can do cosmic feats. You have Xavier who had to exert himself to change the mind of some backwards village folks, now his TP works world-wide and can brainwash/control thousands of mutants at the same moment (see Hellfire Gala) without some nose blood shown.

This all to say that yes, I'm sure there had been mysoginy involved in the past, but at this point is more a "in the years we made them too powerful and we don't know how to fix the issue that come with this" question. IMHO.

[TheLimboBabies]

Maybe, it did annoy me that Rogue wasn't as strong as Thor, Colossus etc. A lot of the most powerful characters seem to be men. I guess men are generally stronger in real life the majority of the time but it is fantasy so they should have equally powerful women.

[Wolverine12]

Can you please explain, then, Phoenix, Storm, and Iceman?

I think that another factor to consider is the morality of the characters. Jean, Storm and Iceman are generally all heroes, meaning they use their powers for the benefit of others and not personal gain. It’s a pretty simple way to nerf these obscenely powerful characters and create a conflict with villains that are at the same power scale, the villains don’t have many moral obligations so they use their powers freely with little regard for others.

Like many others have said, if we look at what these characters are really capable of it makes the rest of the team pointless as Jean, Ororo and Bobby are strong enough to solo most threats.

[Havok83]

It's a matter of degree - Jean on her own is typically the most powerful member of whatever team she is on. Which by itself isn't a problem, as someone is going to be the most powerful member of the team anyways. But add in what the Phoenix has become, and now she's more powerful than the entire rest of the team combined, maybe several times over. It's hard to keep writing believable challenges with that level of disparity. Either the rest of the team becomes constant rescue-bait, or the power player is constantly nerfed by some plot contrivance.

Funny you say that bc the two times Jean had fully bonded with the PF, I dont think Claremont nor Morrison had trouble doing that. Jean as Phoenix isnt all powerful. Without it, she's been shown to do almost everything that Phoenix can do outside of the multiversal feats, which arent something that would come into play most times anyway. Duggan and Gillen have both done right by her this era and she's never bee nerfed by them for the plot nor has the team been rescue-bait. She's been allowed to be a powerful threat that even her opponents fear and acknowledge. Whether it was Nightmare, Maddie, the celestial Progenitor, Knull, Cordyceps Jones, she's been given the room to flex her power while still feeling as a natural fit to have a team around her. I dont think thats as much of an issue for good writers that have an interest in her

[Nicoclaws]

Still, is an issue with decades of writers coming and upping the power levels, to the point that you open an 80s or 90s comic and go "wait, is this even the same character?".
Even Dark Phoenix (I mean) by Claremont could be taken on by the X-Men (no hope of winning, obvs, but there's was a change to last some minute) - and she was clearly the most powerful mutant for a lot of time.
You get back and read Storm struggling with controlling a storm, or keeping an attack going. Now she could change the whole climate of the planet all the while reading a book and cooking at the same time. (not a dig to Storm, I pick her as an example as Omega mutant). Iceman is on the same level, but at least he got the in-canon explanation of not tapping into his potential/holding back bla blah. Still, you got someone who barely struggled to ice up a building to someone who can turn all Earth into a new ace age in a minute.
You have Magneto (who doesn't have the excuse of being a teen when he was introduced) who barely floated himself, now he can do cosmic feats. You have Xavier who had to exert himself to change the mind of some backwards village folks, now his TP works world-wide and can brainwash/control thousands of mutants at the same moment (see Hellfire Gala) without some nose blood shown.

This all to say that yes, I'm sure there had been mysoginy involved in the past, but at this point is more a "in the years we made them too powerful and we don't know how to fix the issue that come with this" question. IMHO.

I think most those power creeps are actually explained in story.
Magneto was alway very powerful, he actually created an asteroid base and lifted an island from the deepsea.
Xavier got the permanent Cerebro attached, which always helped him.
Iceman froze the planet with an Apocalypse enhancement.
Storm and Iceman, it's easy to explain they just got better with their powers, and it's for the best, because they're SUPPOSED to get better, they're supposed to be training. In the 80s Storm was already making cosmic feats with almost no training. Now she knows better, and she probably trained to exhaust herself less.

[Havok83]

I think most those power creeps are actually explained in story.
Magneto was alway very powerful, he actually created an asteroid base and lifted an island from the deepsea.

Most times, but not always. There was that time in the late 90s when Magneto's powers were burning out and he was all show but behind the scenes relying on Polaris to help supply him with power

[Agent Z]

Apart from Franklin, whose power comes and goes, and maybe Sentry who still had restrictions, I cannot think of many all-powerful male heroes in Marvel. Maybe Blue Marvel ?

Thor, Hulk, Wonder Man, Nova, Adam Warlock and Nate Grey

[Mercury]

Well...it was clearly a "product of its time" of the Industry and the thinking of certain men who ran it. And while misogyny still exists today in many different forms and levels, some subtle and others quite obvious...there are many more women and men in the Industry today who know better and are doing better especially where it comes to the women of Marvel.

I think misogyny has decreased, but conscious and unconscious sexism still runs rampant, particularly in the comic book medium. (On second thought, perhaps I should've used sexism instead of misogyny in the thread title and opening post.) That said, as you noted, there are more people in the medium and beyond who are progressive and who know and are making efforts to do better. However, subconscious sexism, being so ingrained and reflexive even, is just as pernicious as misogyny, if not more so; it isn't always detected by those who know better and may even be exhibited and unconsciously celebrated by them and others!

That said...One key factor a lot of people tend to disregard about the female X-Men that extends even to today...and this was very deliberate on Chris' part back then (Perhaps in response to Shooter's edicts?) and throughout his 16 years plus run...they've always been far stronger than the men, their powers more broad-spectrum and diverse. Case in point--even without powers Storm was still the very best choice to lead the X-Men at the time. He may have been editorially "forced" to downplay his female characters but he always found other ways to elevate them at the same time.

This is true!

Also, J. Andrew Deman wrote an excellent book, The Claremont Run: Subverting Gender in the X-Men (2023), in which he uses the Bechdel test—"a very low bar for representation of female characters" in media works (p. 5)—to analyze Claremont's Uncanny X-Men (UXM) run. He notes, "In order to pass the Bechdel test, (1) a work must have more than one female character; (2) the female characters must have a conversation with each other; and (3) the conversation has to be about something other than men" (Deman, 2023, p. 6). Using these criteria, Deman found that "Of the UXM issues published during the Claremont run, 82 percent pass the Bechdel test" (p. 6). By contrast, of "the first 500 issues of UXM (1963-2008)," excluding Claremont's run, only "33 percent" pass the test (p. 7). Moreover, between 1970 and 1990, Marvel Comics' output as a whole failed to score "50 percent" on the test (p. 7), with Claremont's issues "passing the Bechdel test 42 percent more often than the entire Marvel line (Claremont included)" (p. 8).

That alone speaks to Claremont's progressive treatment of female characters.

I think the part of the article you posted answer's your question, it was a product of the time. It doesn't really seem to be an "editorial edict" in modern X-Men comics. Look at Storm under Ewing's pen, she is practically unbeatable (not a bad thing), and Jean under Gillen especially in A.X.E. was supremely powerful. Let's just be honest, back then it was unheard of for a "girl to beat a boy" at any physical contest. All that being said Claremont still managed to make Jean a cosmic figure during TDPS. She freaking ate a planet!

And yet, I find that Jean and Ororo and other female characters akin to them are still reined in when compared to their male counterparts. Their supreme power and abilities are often shrouded in mystery or spoken of cryptically or require augmentation by others, while characters such as Thor, Legion, Franklin Richards, and even Quentin fucking Quire get to flaunt and brandish their power and abilities in explicit terms. Perhaps I'm being rash, unreasonable, and myopic in my view, but that's how it seems to me.

The character’s sex/gender really isn’t the issue. OP characters either always get written out, depowered, written in away that makes them look incompetent or given a weakness they never had before just so they can be written in a story believably.

Examples: Professor X, Iceman, Gambit , Synch, Kid Omega, and many others.

You do have a point, but I wholly disagree with the notion that a "character's sex/gender really isn't the [or an] issue."

Thor probably counts. I would argue Hulk too, but there are a lot of fans of both characters who don't like them in books like Avengers because they tend to be nerfed to feel like more realistic teammates. Jean and Storm have the same problem, depending on who's writing them. They were conceived as team franchise characters, not solo heroes, so it doesn't make sense to keep them at super omega unbeatable goddess level when they're supposed to be fighting alongside the likes of Wolverine and Cyclops.

When writers do find ways to Jean and/or Storm to lose, their fans riot. This board is a perfect example.

You have multiple points. But frankly, the onus is or should be on the writers to find creative ways to render characters of supreme power, like Jean and Ororo, fallible and relatable. This is one reason I believe Jean's guilt- and trauma-induced ambivalence over and self-denial of her destiny—"her fullest potential as a psi," to quote Claremont's description of her as Phoenix—works. It adds an element to her character that acts as a mechanism for regulating her unparalleled abilities. It also works as a mechanism of pathos that makes her relatable to readers like me, who have endured trauma and exhibited destructive tendencies, both towards themselves and others, that have caused guilt.

but aren’t female X-MEN usually stronger?

As Devaishwarya pointed out, that began with Claremont. And it's still holds true today.

[Mercury]

The "gameplay balance" so to speak in team books is certainly an important factor to consider. If one character could potentialy resolve all problems with their powers alone, they become a problem for the writer they will then want to sidestep or remove as much as possible.

But while on the subject of Wolverine and Cyclops.

It might be quite telling that the most popular male X-men and the one who consistently and successfull carries solo titles since the 1980's has powers which are extremely limited in scope.

He can heal super fast, has keen animal senses and there are sharp knives comming out between his knucles. The only extend by which he can manipulate the world around him ends at the tip of said circa 30 centimeter long knives.

So on paper this character should not be considered on par with people who can manipulate magnetic fields, turn their body into ice and manipulate it, read and manipulate minds at great distances, controll weather on a global or even cosmic scale, move object with their minds reaching in size from school busses or individual pieces of sand, have the physical strength to lift and throw tanks, run or even walk at speed close to breaking the sound barrier, skin that is impervious to large calibre gun rounds, turn their bodies into minature suns, etc.

And yet the universe will bend over backwards not only to keep him relevant to the team and present him as equal to the above mentioned characters, but even make sure that often enough he will be important to saving the day.

All because of the above mentioned "gameplay balance", but also because of popularity which in part seems to stem exactly from the fact that his powers are limited scope and force him to constantly engage in physical action with enemies.
Which in turn is one notable main appeal of the whole super hero genre (compare Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, The Hulk, Spiderman, Daredevil, etc. and how they deal with enemies)

And even in the context of the X-men as team book it's telling that the majority of the popular male team members have powers which are rather limited in scope.

Cyclops, Beast, Angel, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Collosus, Bishop, all of them have very limited powers. Even Cable, one of four X-men to carry an ongoing solo for a while, is primarily relying on brawn, brain and weapons, because most of the time his actual super powers are too dangerous to unleash.

So overall there is a case to be made that the bigger the scope and potential of a character's powers is, the more bothersome they seem become for writers to handle in the context of the expected and popular super hero stories, especially on a team book. Whereas more limited or restrained powers will make it easier and therefor increase the chance of being favored by writers.

The problem for female characters in this regard is that they are traditional much more likely to be given metaphysical manipulation powers in order to contribute to actions, fights or other situation from a "safe" distance, rather than have powers which force them to engage enemies in hand to hand fights.

And these powers in turn tend to be a lot more open to the top, which is where writers will often push them, at which point however power creep will set in and writers will seek out ways to "nerf" them for the plot to work like normal.

In this regard Rogue is perhaps one of the most fortunate popular female X-men.

The permanent Ms. Marvel/now Wonderman powers allow her to engage in good old fisticuffs with most types of enemies akin to Collosus, while her ability to absorb other characters life force and temporarily copy their powers give her an "ace in the hole" as long as writers will frequently limit her ability to recall them afterwards.

So regardless of how much writers "nerf" her she will always be easy to writer and can be re-empowered as the plot needs.

You make an extremely valid point regarding the utility of superheroes with abilities that are more tactical and limited in scope versus those with powers of a more metaphysical and infinitely expansive kind. The former characters are certainly more relatable and, consequently, in a way, more admirable. And yet, the male characters that fall into the first category—perhaps, because there are simply more male comic book characters in general—end up being characterized by the same indomitability that should characterize the female characters that fall into the second category. Logan, especially, has been allowed to transcend death on several occasions. Meanwhile, Jean as Phoenix gets taken down by an AnCiEnT space weapon and a MaGnEtIc pulse, both of which knocked her out of commission for a combined twenty years—to add insult to injury, the first time because she was too powerful, and the second time because her husband needed a new mate—despite the fact that her schtick is literally supposed to be immortality.

In order to write Jean and Ororo as supremely powerful beings writers may need to completely seperate them from most X-teams otherwise you run into "Batman in JL" problem where the other members of the team, in this case Jean and Ororo, are dumbed down to make Batman, or in this case the rest of the X-men, look good. So there are two options, they either go solo which doesn't last more then 10 or 20 issues nowadays unless you're Wolverine, or my preferred choice which is them being put in teams with characters of similar power levels. Imagine an Annihilators book with Jean as the leader. I don't know how it would sell but I know I would read the hell out of that.

This is certainly another option, one which we seem to be getting for Jean and Ororo in the upcoming era. Let's hope their series not only last but are designed to last.

Oooh, I really like this idea. It makes sense to pair characters up of similar power levels. Or at least if they're not as powerful, at least provide unique utility (ala a teleporter or telepath).

Different books can have different scopes like (a) street-level, security work or regional threats, (b) domestic superheroes, (c) international threats and (d) cosmic teams.

Just as an example of what I mean regarding this type of structure and consideration. low-key a wishlist

Security team (X-Force or X-Factor) of Wolverine, Gambit, Nightcrawler, Psylocke (Kwannon), Shadowcat, and Prodigy

Domestic team (X-Men) of Cyclops, Warpath, Rogue, Emma Frost, Cecilia Reyes, Jubilee, Hellion and Ms Marvel.

International team (X-Corp) of Captain Britian (Betsy), Monet, Colossus, Oya, Sunfire, Rictor, and Sunspot.

Cosmic team (Immortal or Red) of Jean Grey, Polaris, Iceman, Storm, Exodus, Xorn, Magik and Legion.

I do have a slight concern of maybe it unintentionally restricting roster creativity or killing the chance of interactions between characters of different power-scaling but I do think it's worth it to consider the type of book and antagonists you want the team to tackle.

It's a very cool idea but might limit the dynamism associated with the X-Men. Nevertheless, I wonder this is similar to what we're getting in the upcoming line.

I mean this thread is literally about certain versions of Jean and Storm being too powerful for a team book and Iceman has been purposefully nerfed for most of his publication history, if you want to frame his underachieving nature that way.

Okay, you have another good point because Bobby has totally and repeatedly been nerfed, considering what we've seen him do throughout the decades.

[BobbysWorld]

I think there's definitely room to say that misogyny is alive and well in how a lot of writers approach writing powerful female characters which leads to nerfing AND a lot of writers suck at writing extremely powerful characters in general which leads to nerfing. Both can be true.

[Doom'nGloom]

I think the main problem with all powerful characters is that in order to write them well writers really need to commit to it and most simply don't. If Jean were to operate at her most powerful all the time then she should have obliterated Orchis the moment Nimrod descended on the Gala or at least neutralized them if those pesky morals got in the way. Instead writers chicken out and we have Jean being stabbed by Moira with blightswill or whatever that bs was. And I don't completely blame writers as I can't think of many situations where Wolverine is needed in a team right next to Jean, Ororo or any other heavy hitter and it making sense. So as I said before in order to showcase the true capabilities of Jean she either has to go solo or team up with characters of similar power levels. If there is a huge power gap between Jean and her teammates in a team book then either

a) it feels like a Jean solo with the others in supporting roles at best (despite Al Ewing doing his best to make it feel like an ensemble cast I think X-men Red at times felt like this which is why I think it should have been something like "Storm and the Annihilators")

or

b) Jean gets dumbed down or she conveniently gets taken out when the action starts.

This is certainly another option, one which we seem to be getting for Jean and Ororo in the upcoming era. Let's hope their series not only last but are designed to last.

Fingers crossed.