New Goblin to be born in ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ #51 and #52

[Lee]

I'm glad that in 2024 we don't have comics where Peter Parker breaks things and yells at Mary Jane whenever he's angry.

And I'm sure there'd be hundreds of angry posts in this forum if we did.

[Tuck]

I have doubts about the continuing economic viability of monthly comics (no less twice monthly) outside of books like ASM or the Bat books, etc. But I'm starting to wonder about the creative viability of the insane output Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, the X books, and a few others get.

[Hurricane Billy]

They've both been making Marvel Comics a lot of money. Publishers tend not to fire the people who make them the most money. Publishers tend not to fire people because a guy on a message board says they should.

This bodes extremely well for Jonathan Hickman getting to do Ultimate Spider-Man for quite awhile then!

[Garlador]

I'm glad that in 2024 we don't have comics where Peter Parker breaks things and yells at Mary Jane whenever he's angry.

And I'm sure there'd be hundreds of angry posts in this forum if we did.

My wife and I have arguments. Sometimes we yell. Sometimes, I need to blow off steam. Most couples will experience conflict in their relationships. The idea that in 2024 people should bury their anger and suppress their grief and emotions is not only unhealthy and self-destructive, but it actually stunts growth and connection.

It only becomes a problem when actual harm is inflicted and turns into abuse. Peter is not abusive, and we know that. But he should be allowed to lose his temper, yell, vent, and express his sorrow and grief, instead of being a emotionally dead butt-monkey who has resigned himself to endless suffering.

I have the comics where Lois yells at Clark, screams at him, has fights with him. In one case, she throws stuff at him because "he can take it" and it helps her feel better. In the volume of the Flash I got last week, Linda snaps at Wally over failing to do some mundane chores and loses her temper, yelling at him and lashing out.

So long as they handle it and resolve it like adults, conflict and anger should exist, and we should allow our characters to make mistakes and say things they don't mean in the heat of the moment so long as they apologize.

[Lee]

I have doubts about the continuing economic viability of monthly comics (no less twice monthly) outside of books like ASM or the Bat books, etc. But I'm starting to wonder about the creative viability of the insane output Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, the X books, and a few others get.

Ultimately, the audience decides. I don't envy anyone having to write the 4798th Superman adventure where he foils Brainiac's 359th scheme. But only a minuscule number of people have read every previous Superman vs Brainiac story, so even if something similar has happened before it's all going to be new to a lot of the audience.

It's a tough balancing act for long running legacy series: do something too familiar and some of the audience could get bored, do something too radical and some of the audience will feel you've strayed too far from the original premise of the series/characters. Bullseye murdering one of Daredevil's loved ones again would get a yawn from me, but Daredevil in space court with Ronan the Accuser would be too outside the series' wheelhouse for my tastes.

I think it's a shame we've lost so much of the civilian supporting cast and day-to-day soap opera that used to be a driving force in super-hero comics. It's easier to keep stories fresh when the focus is on the constantly evolving social lives and human drama of the cast, when the readership is so deeply invested in what happens next with Clark Kent's co-worker's personal struggles that it doesn't matter so much if a new villain is a bit of a dud or the spectacle of the next alien invasion doesn't top the spectacle of the previous alien invasion.

My wife and I have arguments. Sometimes we yell. Sometimes, I need to blow off steam. Most couples will experience conflict in their relationships. The idea that in 2024 people should bury their anger and suppress their grief and emotions is not only unhealthy and self-destructive, but it actually stunts growth and connection.

It only becomes a problem when actual harm is inflicted and turns into abuse. Peter is not abusive, and we know that. But he should be allowed to lose his temper, yell, vent, and express his sorrow and grief, instead of being a emotionally dead butt-monkey who has resigned himself to endless suffering.

I have the comics where Lois yells at Clark, screams at him, has fights with him. In one case, she throws stuff at him because "he can take it" and it helps her feel better. In the volume of the Flash I got last week, Linda snaps at Wally over failing to do some mundane chores and loses her temper, yelling at him and lashing out.

I think it would be a very different story if Clark Kent was screaming at Lois and throwing things around the house.

I don't think people would be happy if the next issue of Ultimate Spider-Man had Peter screaming at Mary Jane and the kids, flipping the kitchen table and smashing a lamp against a wall.

(Remember when the discourse on this forum was how Paul was obviously a girlfriend-abusing, child-beating lowlife... because there was a reference to him having punched Peter once?)

[Garlador]

Ultimately, the audience decides. I don't envy anyone having to write the 4798th Superman adventure where he foils Brainiac's 359th scheme. But only a minuscule number of people have read every previous Superman vs Brainiac story, so even if something similar has happened before it's all going to be new to a lot of the audience.

It's a tough balancing act for long running legacy series: do something too familiar and some of the audience could get bored, do something too radical and some of the audience will feel you've strayed too far from the original premise of the series/characters. Bullseye murdering one of Daredevil's loved ones again would get a yawn from me, but Daredevil in space court with Ronan the Accuser would be too outside the series' wheelhouse for my tastes.

I think it's a shame we've lost so much of the civilian supporting cast and day-to-day soap opera that used to be a driving force in super-hero comics. It's easier to keep stories fresh when the focus is on the constantly evolving social lives and human drama of the cast, when the readership is so deeply invested in what happens next with Clark Kent's co-worker's personal struggles that it doesn't matter so much if a new villain is a bit of a dud or the spectacle of the next alien invasion doesn't top the spectacle of the previous alien invasion.

We don't always agree, but one thing that absolutely has plagued Spider-Man comics in recent years is the loss of a grounded supporting cast. It absolutely blows my mind that bringing back a civilian supporting cast was touted as one of the drivers of OMD/BND, and yet we're FURTHER away from that now than we were at the height of the marriage era. Every single major supporting character now either is a superhero/supervillain or is tied knowingly to a superhero/supervillain with little in the way of a normal, relatable social circle of normal, relatable experiences... and they did all that in record-time over the last 15 years, far more than prior 40+ years combined. It's a decision I strongly disagree with (and one reason Weisman's emphasis on trying to bring it back recently felt refreshing, if tangential).

Bringing this back to Spider-Goblin 2: Electric Boogaloo, I think this is another reason why I just feel so very disconnected from events. Out of the infinite number of directions to take a character and book, rather than focus on a grounded, relatable conflict for Peter, we're doing "he's going evil. Again." Not only is it not very relatable (who of us hasn't been turned evil twice in a few months, right?), but with almost his entire supporting cast either now being supers or involved with supers, whatever fallout is greatly diminished.

Something like this hit much harder when Peter had a life and loved ones that was worth protecting and defending, and a future worth fighting for.

[Lee]

We don't always agree, but one thing that absolutely has plagued Spider-Man comics in recent years is the loss of a grounded supporting cast. It absolutely blows my mind that bringing back a civilian supporting cast was touted as one of the drivers of OMD/BND, and yet we're FURTHER away from that now than we were at the height of the marriage era. Every single major supporting character now either is a superhero/supervillain or is tied knowingly to a superhero/supervillain with little in the way of a normal, relatable social circle of normal, relatable experiences... and they did all that in record-time over the last 15 years, far more than prior 40+ years combined. It's a decision I strongly disagree with (and one reason Weisman's emphasis on trying to bring it back recently felt refreshing, if tangential).

The Brand New Day run made extensive use of the civilian supporting cast, more so than the series had since the very early '90s. Dan Slott's run was also good with it, though quite a few of them were ordinary people in an extraordinary workplace. I agree that the current run, from what I've read of it, is lacking in that regard. I don't think it's the most lacking ASM run for the civilian supporting cast, that would be JMS's run.

[Garlador]

I think it would be a very different story if Clark Kent was screaming at Lois and throwing things around the house.

I don't think people would be happy if the next issue of Ultimate Spider-Man had Peter screaming at Mary Jane and the kids, flipping the kitchen table and smashing a lamp against a wall.

(Remember when the discourse on this forum was how Paul was obviously a girlfriend-abusing, child-beating lowlife... because there was a reference to him having punched Peter once?)

Well, for starters, Clark Kent isn't Peter Parker. It's the same faulty logic I've seen certain cultish fans defending Batman killing by showing Punisher doing it and going "oh, so that's okay then?"... they're not the same character, and Superman has almost always been written as a paragon of morality and justice.

But Superman does get angry. He loses his temper. He makes mistakes. But he's written in the way that Superman is supposed to be written.



I have plenty more extreme examples - and the follow-up apologies he makes to Lois for losing his temper or getting emotional.

Going back to Peter, he's never consistently been written an abusive or destructive. He doesn't just fly off the handle at MJ or is the type to abuse and traumatize his kids. Mary Jane grew up in an abusive household as an abused child; she'd never allow that kind of man to marry her or raise her children.



Concerning PAUL... I'm just going to laugh, because him being a loser deadbeat lowlife is more of a meme and I can get with that. Still doesn't absolve him of his part in genociding eight billion men, women, and children though. I feel like that strangely still gets brushed over, and it's not like anyone is alive to vouch for Paul's version of events either. I could go on a much longer informative tirade about the red flags he has actually raised and the women in my group who have shared their experiences regarding their unfavorable views of him in relation to past unhealthy relationships, but I'll save that for another time.

The Brand New Day run made extensive use of the civilian supporting cast, more so than the series had since the very early '90s. Dan Slott's run was also good with it, though quite a few of them were ordinary people in an extraordinary workplace. I agree that the current run, from what I've read of it, is lacking in that regard. I don't think it's the most lacking ASM run for the civilian supporting cast, that would be JMS's run.

BND made the attempt, and it mostly worked, but the efforts were quickly diminished and lost. That's my point that whatever the intentions on restoring the civilian support cast, they've fallen aside hard in the last few years, more so than any run prior.

And I'll even disagree with the claim JMS's run lacked it, because I've re-read it recently and it's great. If anything, I loved that after Peter unmasks, we have multiple stories shining a light on how the civilian friends and loved ones in his life react to this shocking news, from Jonah to Betty to even older love interests like Debra. They got more spotlight and growth in that window of time than all the years after. And don't get me started on how much Aunt May improved under the JMS run once she knew the truth of his identity and became more integral to his life as a supporting cast member (JMS actually says the loss of that dynamic with May hurts him more than the loss of the marriage, particularly as Peter's "coming out" as Spider-Man was widely praised by queer readers as similar to their own struggles with being open with their true selves to their parents. And then Marvel put him "back in the closet" with May for the sacred status quo...)

[Lifetap]

I think the weirdest thing for me is. Okay if you want to have Peter be the goblin again to do more with that story, why cure him in the first place. Now you are going to have to waste page space on how he gets reinfected (unless they just say he never lost them somehow). I would have just said something like with Norman being in Gold Goblin mode, he developed a drug that would suppress the goblin craziness that he has been taking and have him give it to Peter. Then you can still have the hints that Norman is being reset at the end of the first Spider-Goblin run by showing that the treatment isn't working long term and he is beginning to revert while using that as the reason Peter is not gobbling during gang war.

[Garlador]

I think the weirdest thing for me is. Okay if you want to have Peter be the goblin again to do more with that story, why cure him in the first place. Now you are going to have to waste page space on how he gets reinfected (unless they just say he never lost them somehow). I would have just said something like with Norman being in Gold Goblin mode, he developed a drug that would suppress the goblin craziness that he has been taking and have him give it to Peter. Then you can still have the hints that Norman is being reset at the end of the first Spider-Goblin run by showing that the treatment isn't working long term and he is beginning to revert while using that as the reason Peter is not gobbling during gang war.

Going FURTHER... they ALSO teased that he was reverting to Otto's influence with the octopus arms earlier in the run too.


... So this is the THIRD time he's been influenced by external villainous forces into being more evil and cruel in this run.

[Bitterman]

I don't care anymore, at this rate i have accepted that they will kill mary jane, retire peter with miles the spider lantern, and that it will be so bad that they will Reboot the entire line again.

At least, there is still USM until Hickman leaves.

Even the X-line is proving to be Dead on Arrival thanks to brevoort.

[Anthony W]

I don't care anymore, at this rate i have accepted that they will kill mary jane, retire peter with miles the spider lantern, and that it will be so bad that they will Reboot the entire line again.

At least, there is still USM until Hickman leaves.

Even the X-line is proving to be Dead on Arrival thanks to brevoort.

I can be very cynical, but I still believe in Marvel and DC. There is feeling that there is a LOT of fat that needs to be trimmed but Marvel and DC can't bring themselves to do it. The Spider-Man and X-Men books aren't bad so much as they are worn down from overuse.

Also, why is Breevoort catching so much flack? He is being brought in to fix Jordan White's mess. I know people like Krakoa but I view it with the same stink eye that I look at the Clone Saga with.

[Bitterman]

Because Brevoort Hired Tini Howard as the people who have already ruined DC recently back to Marvel, when marvel already fired them for the same reasons in the past due to low sales.

It is a never ending circle at this rate.

[wleakr]

Ultimately, Brevoort concluded, “This all comes back to a slogan that I’ve been threatening to put onto a T-Shirt for many years now, but have never actually bothered to do: COMICS: DYING SINCE 1935.“

[Anthony W]

Because Brevoort Hired Tini Howard as the people who have already ruined DC recently back to Marvel, when marvel already fired them for the same reasons in the past due to low sales.

It is a never ending circle at this rate.

Maybe that is a combination of Marvel telling Brevoort that he must have a certain number of X-titles and not too many writers wanting to do those gigs or asking for too much money?