New Goblin to be born in ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ #51 and #52

[Coop]

I don't think "popcorn flick" was what he was going for with Dead Language or Gang War.

It's certainly not how it was marktted and hyped. I recall Lowe saying it drove him to tears or was one of the most emotionally resonant stories ever etc

Of course defense to that will be "he has to hype up the book"

But there's not really much point in debating the "it's supposed to be junk food" argument and dealing with the righteous indignation that someone paying for a comic dare want something more out of it, how the reader is wrong, etc.

It's a silly argument to make. I'll just continue to vote with my wallet.

[Lee]

BRB, buying "Scorsese Was Right" t-shirts for every day of the week.

[Tuck]

It's certainly not how it was marktted and hyped. I recall Lowe saying it drove him to tears or was one of the most emotionally resonant stories ever etc

I believe that was what he said his response to the ending of the entire run was when reading the pitch.

[Garlador]

BRB, buying "Scorsese Was Right" t-shirts for every day of the week.

The fact that Scorsese actually loves the Spider-Man movie makes me slowly smile.

“Spider-Man films– Sam Raimi’s films I like actually. And I’m really glad that was a big success.”

The one hero Scorsese expects better of in cinema… is Spider-Man.

[Jman27]

The fact that Scorsese actually loves the Spider-Man movie makes me slowly smile.


The one hero Scorsese expects better of in cinema… is Spider-Man.

looks like that statement was done in 2003 wonder if he would still have said that today

[Toonstrack]

Seems redundant but im willing to see how it plays out.

[Hurricane Billy]

Yes, but I would be severely disappointed if Star Wars removed the messaging, themes, and moralizing and became nothing more than empty-calorie entertainment of flashing lightsabers and noise. Star Wars doesn't need to be Schindler's List. It does, however, need to be Star Wars - along with the politics, mature conflicts, and soul that is integral to its identity and core. A Star Wars without anything to say is not a Star Wars worth experiencing.

Same as Spider-Man.

Aiming at a younger audience doesn't mean talking down to them or removing difficult, challenging content.

I really don't mean to gang up on Lee here, especially since there's already been a fair number of responses already to his opinions here about ASM and Star Wars. He's obviously entitled to have his own opinion on things and there's certainly truth to the argument that while there is Star Wars content that offers more challenging and contemplative content, the franchise as a whole is hardly as challenging as something like an Ingmar Bergman film.

That said, I think you are absolutely correct in that media primarily aimed at younger audiences shouldn't be talking down to them or always shy away from including serious and more emotionally challenging content.

I personally grew up during the late 90's and early 2000's right in the center of shows like Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon, Pokemon and other various anime taking off with kids in the West. Watched most of 'em as they came out, but there was always this one particular self-contained season of Digimon that stood out to me as a kid; Season 3 (Digimon Tamers), where the new cast of characters all existed in a world where Digimon was a popular video game franchise, trading card series and the first two seasons existed as television entertainment. As you'd expect, Tamers takes on a more meta approach to everything throughout, anchoring the narrative around a smaller core cast of characters and the idea of "What if this popular game we love is actually real?"

And that all leads into a moment two-thirds of the way into the run where genuine tragedy strikes and the story starts to focus more and more on this one particular supporting character who had always been presented as this very light-hearted and comedic individual. Without going into full or in-depth spoilers, Tamers has had a reputation among fans of the franchise for being notably darker and more mature than the other seasons in how it opts to spend the last third of its episodes diving into something very close to Lovecraftian horror and deconstructing so much of what Digimon and other shows like it and Pokemon were about. All the while, the apocalyptic "Save the World" threat of Tamers' final episodes is tied at the hip of a very personal journey for a child's full-on descent into depression in the wake of a horrific and traumatic life experience.

Now obviously Digimon Tamers isn't perfect and it certainly doesn't dive as deep into existential dread or self-destructive nihilism as something like a Bergman film might do. It was still just a shounen anime series made with younger audiences in mind. But I was 8/9 years old back when Tamers came out and even then, I appreciated that who it was behind the scenes making that show was trusting kids like myself to be able to handle what they were throwing at us. Obviously mileage will vary from person to person, but I typically find that a lot of the media that I watched as a child that stuck with me the most were the instances where the people making it had that trust in kids and making a conscious choice to not dumb down the story they wanted to tell.

Hell, just look at the wild success that X-Men '97 is currently enjoying on Disney+ and social media. While it's not a show that's meant for the youngest of the young audiences and is partly being made with the acknowledgement that a ton of its viewers will be adults who grew up on the original X-Men: TAS show, it's still a show that kids and younger adolescents are watching. And... well, just Episode 5. If you know, you know.

[Alex_Of_X]

Hey, as a fellow Pokemon fan: that stuff is life and fire incarnate. Bergman and Fellini wish they came up with a talking Meowth.

Re: Zeb's run, I believe he's writing a comic in the superhero genre? A genre spanning the breadth of tones from the grim and emotionally-devastating Madame Web to the sanguine highs of Miracleman?

In hindsight--and this goes for me too--expecting Zeb Wells, a guy who did both SHED and SPIDER-HAM, who had a kid shoot a cop in HELLIONS and be sentenced to forever jail alongside his EGG MOM--to not have a widely fluctuating tone in his Spidey run was a mistake. Ofc we have both teen death and REK-RAP over here: it's a Wells joint!

Honestly, may we all revel in our compulsions. I'll miss this run when its over.

To sum up: Scorcese was right. However, REK-RAP is. Nuff said.

[Lee]

I have never found a Spider-Man comic challenging. Entertaining, thrilling, amusing, moving, occasionally educational (picked up some new words as a kid), but never challenging. I've never found a Spider-Man comic to be so complex, nuanced and deeply layered that it demands multiple careful re-reads to fully grasp. So the idea that Spider-Man comics aren't deep and challenging like they were in the good old days is bizarre to me.

[Kevinroc]

On a totally unrelated note to recent discussions...

Marvel really needs to collect JMD's Spectacular Spider-Man run.

[Garlador]

Re: Zeb's run, I believe he's writing a comic in the superhero genre? A genre spanning the breadth of tones from the grim and emotionally-devastating Madame Web to the sanguine highs of Miracleman?

In hindsight--and this goes for me too--expecting Zeb Wells, a guy who did both SHED and SPIDER-HAM, who had a kid shoot a cop in HELLIONS and be sentenced to forever jail alongside his EGG MOM--to not have a widely fluctuating tone in his Spidey run was a mistake. Ofc we have both teen death and REK-RAP over here: it's a Wells joint!

Spider-Man should have a variety of tones, but it should also have an organic forward progression that makes sense. Following up the death of children with a wacky silly adventure issue is massive tonal whiplash, and such extremes interrupt the character and reader from processing events naturally. It’s a general writing rule that most writers abide by, because pingponging around all over the place emotionally and logically leaves readers lost, confused, and frustrated.

A good story knows that you can do a great tonal whiplash moment if it’s properly built up, intentional and with meaning, and serving a greater narrative arc. But it still knows not to overplay that tactic either or it loses its effectiveness.

I have never found a Spider-Man comic challenging. Entertaining, thrilling, amusing, moving, occasionally educational (picked up some new words as a kid), but never challenging. I've never found a Spider-Man comic to be so complex, nuanced and deeply layered that it demands multiple careful re-reads to fully grasp. So the idea that Spider-Man comics aren't deep and challenging like they were in the good old days is bizarre to me.

WOW. I’m literally speechless. Huh.

[Vegan]

Spider-Man should have a variety of tones, but it should also have an organic forward progression that makes sense. Following up the death of children with a wacky silly adventure issue is massive tonal whiplash, and such extremes interrupt the character and reader from processing events naturally. It’s a general writing rule that most writers abide by, because pingponging around all over the place emotionally and logically leaves readers lost, confused, and frustrated.

A good story knows that you can do a great tonal whiplash moment if it’s properly built up, intentional and with meaning, and serving a greater narrative arc. But it still knows not to overplay that tactic either or it loses its effectiveness.




WOW. I’m literally speechless. Huh.

It’s been a very long time, but if I’m remember right, this is part of why I couldn’t much enjoy Daniel Way’s Deadpool. A story would end with him being like “I just do not want to live anymore,” then follow it up with “I wanna be a pirate guy and eat burritos during hostage standoffs.” The tone would jump too haphazardly, so neither direction ended up feeling genuine

[Vegan]

Have I ever found a Spider-Man comic challenging? Maybe not. Have I read Spider-Man comics that have something actually going on under the hood? Yes. Have any of the stories in this run fit that description? No.
No one, and I repeat this because you seem to be intentionally being obtuse about this, and are doing so in a way that denigrates a lot of good work that makes me wonder why you even read these books in the first place, NO ONE is saying Spider-Man is or should be Finnegan’s Wake, but it should be more than this, and frequently has been.

[Alex_Of_X]

Spider-Man should have a variety of tones, but it should also have an organic forward progression that makes sense. Following up the death of children with a wacky silly adventure issue is massive tonal whiplash, and such extremes interrupt the character and reader from processing events naturally. It’s a general writing rule that most writers abide by, because pingponging around all over the place emotionally and logically leaves readers lost, confused, and frustrated.

A good story knows that you can do a great tonal whiplash moment if it’s properly built up, intentional and with meaning, and serving a greater narrative arc. But it still knows not to overplay that tactic either or it loses its effectiveness.

I get arguing execution--that's in the eye of the beholder. The wider-than-standart tonal variety, tho, I have zero issue with. Shonen manga especially loves running the emotional gamut in 0.5 seconds, at times to great success.

Go read Chainsaw-Man everyone! (and One Piece)

[Spider-Tiger]

Have I ever found a Spider-Man comic challenging? Maybe not. Have I read Spider-Man comics that have something actually going on under the hood? Yes. Have any of the stories in this run fit that description? No.
No one, and I repeat this because you seem to be intentionally being obtuse about this, and are doing so in a way that denigrates a lot of good work that makes me wonder why you even read these books in the first place, NO ONE is saying Spider-Man is or should be Finnegan’s Wake, but it should be more than this, and frequently has been.

It seems like just another straw man argument to deflect criticism. Like it went from people complaining about the writing lacking some very basic things like a coherent plot structure, character arcs, and likable characters with some dimension to comparing Spider-Man to Shakespeare. And now people are just splitting hairs over the degree of depth and maturity that should or has ever existed in these comics. Instead of actually debating the merits of the work itself.