New Goblin to be born in ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ #51 and #52

[Garlador]

A friend of mine, an academic watched the Ruth Bader Ginsburg biopic and Captain Marvel in quick succession when they came out. She noted that they both have similar themes and singled out the scene where RBG nails the condescending male mentor who tells her to rise above her emotions with a photon blast.
Low-brow and deep are not opposites. Low-brow marks genre and style, not depth. Hamlet was low-brow when Shakespeare wrote it.

An astute observation. Shakespeare was very much written for the common man and considered rather crude and unrefined by the "elite" of his time (and he could get rather bawdy and irreverent as well!).

Stories have as much meaning as the reader wishes to impart on them.

I've shared before, I came from a broken home and lacked certain role models and inspirations in my life. Through certain comics - especially certain Spider-Man comics - I found a role model to aspire towards as I matured and took on the responsibilities of adulthood, and as a husband and father. Is it silly to say that my commitment to my wife and family was directly inspired by a Spider-Man comic? I don't think so.

[marhawkman]

You actually had a good story plot going with this up until that ending...so hard to stick the landing!

That's the thing... real-life doesn't have tidy ends to it... never has.... story endings just feell... unnatural.

[JustLuke]

I just want to enjoy Amazing Spider-Man again. That's all I want

[wleakr]

The very first issue of Spider-Man involves a young boy suffering a catastrophic tragedy due to his own selfish behavior and the moralizing that "with great power there must also come great responsibility". The very foundation of Spider-Man is based on messaging, moralizing, and greater depth than the average comic, with a life lesson that is meant to be learned and applied beyond the printed page.

We're working with a sliding scale of depth here. In the realm of comics, we have ridiculous, breezier fare like Deadpool and Squirrel Girl, and then we have more serious, grounded, and thematic stories that tackle more adult themes and consequences. The regressive take that Marvel superhero comics are designed as mere "popcorn" stories is a discredit to the many mature storylines penned and printed, as well as the many adult-only tailored comics Marvel has produced over the years tackling legitimate high-concept themes and situations. Few would argue that Spider-Man is going to be held as the narrative equivalent of George Orwell or Ray Bradbury, but even the editors of this run are throwing out stuff like "Doctor Zhivago" as supposed influences and inspiration for their decisions (though I would dispute their understanding of that novel).

So, no, Spider-Man isn't the deepest ocean out there, but I could burn hours recounting the excessive number of stories with soul and depth that are far more than occasional "A Very Special Issue" fare. I'd even argue that Spider-Man, more than almost any other superhero, has been at the forefront of challenging the norms of this kind of shallow storytelling by being at the forefront of consequence-laden narratives.

If Spider-Man debuted and was written exclusively as shallow "popcorn" fare, he never would have endured these many long years, and individuals (like the majority on this board) would not be nearly as invested in who these people are and the direction their lives are going.



I've never had a problem or any difficulty defending why I follow a book I dislike and find frustrating. The answer is simple: because the book made me care about what happens under the pen of amazing writers over the course of decades of interesting, character-driven stories. Why would I not care? Spider-Man is the most popular Marvel superhero largely because the foundation of that character and his journey brought millions of people on-board with him. We watched him grow up, graduate, get a job, struggle to earn a living, fall in love, grieve losses, overcoming setbacks, find purpose, get married, plan out a family and a future... all over the span of decades, iterations of lore and history building upon itself into a fascinating tapestry of a hero unlike any other.

It's harder finding people who followed along that far who aren't interested in seeing where writers take him next, and it's fully understandable readers that have invested that much would want to check in on him and root for his success.

And, yes, I am not happy with the book, thus I dropped it and moved on, and I'm finding much more joy in countless other comics. My time and money is mostly spent reading USM, Nightwing, The Flash, Moon Knight, TMNT, etc.

...But that doesn't mean I don't check in on one of my dear ol' friends from time to time to see if he's made any permanent progress in the last 16+ years. He used to, and I would absolutely love the excuse to support a book like that again.

The part in bold...

I've followed all those same things...and enjoyed a lot of it.

But for me, I don't need for the story to keep building upon itself continously.

All those things we read - they could only occur when they did. Storytelling in comics is not like it was.

Which is not to say you can't still tell some enriching stories - USM is off to a great start. But it is still unknown just how deep they will go with that premise.

Comics are written for trades and you kinda need them to be self-contained in order for the trade to read well.

[Lee]

The very first issue of Spider-Man involves a young boy suffering a catastrophic tragedy due to his own selfish behavior and the moralizing that "with great power there must also come great responsibility". The very foundation of Spider-Man is based on messaging, moralizing, and greater depth than the average comic, with a life lesson that is meant to be learned and applied beyond the printed page.

It's a comic where the moral of the story is literally spelled out in the final panel.

It's a story with something to say, and every word of it is on the surface level. No subtext, no ambiguities. No deep reading required.

It's a fantastic children's comic, masterfully drawn, tightly plotted, with strong emotional hooks and fun, breezy dialogue.

[Garlador]

It's a comic where the moral of the story is literally spelled out in the final panel.

It's a story with something to say, and every word of it is on the surface level. No subtext, no ambiguities. No deep reading required.

It's a fantastic children's comic, masterfully drawn, tightly plotted, with strong emotional hooks and fun, breezy dialogue.

We're arguing two separate things here. "Is this just mindless popcorn entertainment, or does it have a message?" and "is this shallow and superficial, or is there depth and substance?".

The moralizing of the 60s is spelled out and lacks subtext for its time, but we have to view it through the lens of how it compared to its contemporaries of the early 60s (particularly the actual shallowness of the Silver Age DC and the sanded-down neutering of the post-Comic Codes oversight). And at the time, there was little else like it. It was one of the "deepest" books on the whole market at the time of publication, particularly in the ramifications and handling of consequences, flaws, and the burdens of responsibility.

However, cynically speaking, given how many TODAY are still going "waitaminute, the X-Men are WOKE?" and acting surprised and startled at the overt, blunt messaging of comics, maybe it's a good thing that the moralizing was so direct. Even Stan mentioned that repeatedly throughout his Soapboxes.

Spider-Man's narrative started off on this footing - a leader amongst its contemporaries - and I reiterate it was cultivated and refined over the years by talented writers with an eye for detail and a heart for subtext and nuance.

I again emphasize that Spider-Man comics - of all things - have respectfully tackled child abuse, rape, school shootings, drug addiction, alcoholism, systemic racism, bigotry, homophobia, ableism, sexism, suicide, PTSD, survivor's guilt, war, class divide, faith and religion, corrupt judicial systems, parental bereavement, generational trauma, and much more... and have done so repeatedly as part of its ongoing, character-defining narrative and not simple one-offs. These mature situations are part and parcel to who these people are, and it paints the whole book, for better or worse.

The odd desire to whitewash over the flaws, conflict, and maturity of Spider-Man and regress it down to mere childish popcorn fare is such a discredit to the legacy of the character, it legitimately blows my mind. What an emotionally and mentally unstimulating iteration of Peter Parker that would be.

And this is precisely why I read other comics now - ones that have the ambitions I ask for - that address mature, mentally-stimulating issues with care, craft, and creativity. I refuse to degrade the whole medium and whitewash it as "popcorn fluff".

... Bringing this all back on-topic, I sincerely, truly, deeply hope that whatever this "Spider-Goblin" ordeal is, it is NOT simply mindless, lazy fluff devoid of merit, consequence, emotional resonance, and meaning. If it's just another "thing that happens" and is treated as inconsequential, easily wrapped up and moved on from, that would be a severe disappointment.

[Frontier]

... Bringing this all back on-topic, I sincerely, truly, deeply hope that whatever this "Spider-Goblin" ordeal is, it is NOT simply mindless, lazy fluff devoid of merit, consequence, emotional resonance, and meaning. If it's just another "thing that happens" and is treated as inconsequential, easily wrapped up and moved on from, that would be a severe disappointment.

Granted we are talking about the team that created Rek-Rap.

[Lee]

Lots of light entertainment aimed at young audiences deal with The Issues. Star Wars is a children's adventure movie about fighting fascism. But it's hardly Schindler's List.

[Garlador]

Lots of light entertainment aimed at young audiences deal with The Issues. Star Wars is a children's adventure movie about fighting fascism. But it's hardly Schindler's List.

Yes, but I would be severely disappointed if Star Wars removed the messaging, themes, and moralizing and became nothing more than empty-calorie entertainment of flashing lightsabers and noise. Star Wars doesn't need to be Schindler's List. It does, however, need to be Star Wars - along with the politics, mature conflicts, and soul that is integral to its identity and core. A Star Wars without anything to say is not a Star Wars worth experiencing.

Same as Spider-Man.

Aiming at a younger audience doesn't mean talking down to them or removing difficult, challenging content.

[Celgress]

“Most shocking issue in 50 years”…if it’s more shocking than reading that Norman had a relationship with Gwen Stacy and she had twins that were hunting Spidey….then I will shake their hand.
Note…I didn’t write good…I wrote shocking.

Or Peter died and was replaced (temporarily) by Doc Ock, or Mephisto dissolved the Spider-Marriage, or Aunt May's death in #400 (also temporary), or, well, you get the point.

[Celgress]

That's not what fraud is.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
"he was convicted of fraud"

"a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds""

That is the definition from Google Law.

But to cover myself I'll say alleged fraud as it hasn't been proven in a court of law. That said, I think there is a very good chance I could if I had time and the inclination get a refund for my purchase of the issue in question if I stated I only bought it in hopes of seeing the "most shocking moment in fifty years".

[Lee]

I think Amazing Spider-Man is operating on about the same level it has for decades.

I don't think Star Wars movies have mature conflicts or challenging content, but that's by the by.

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
"he was convicted of fraud"

"a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds""

That is the definition from Google Law.

But to cover myself I'll say alleged fraud as it hasn't been proven in a court of law. That said, I think there is a very good chance I could if I had time and the inclination get a refund for my purchase of the issue in question if I stated I only bought it in hopes of seeing the "most shocking moment in fifty years".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL_pRiXov7Q

[Celgress]

I think Amazing Spider-Man is operating on about the same level it has for decades.

I don't think Star Wars movies have mature conflicts or challenging content, but that's by the by.

I don't know, genocide, slavery, and fascism are pretty mature themes.

[Kevinroc]

I think Amazing Spider-Man is operating on about the same level it has for decades.

I don't think Star Wars movies have mature conflicts or challenging content, but that's by the by.

Andor exists.

[Daibhidh]

It's a comic where the moral of the story is literally spelled out in the final panel.

It's a story with something to say, and every word of it is on the surface level. No subtext, no ambiguities. No deep reading required.

It's a fantastic children's comic, masterfully drawn, tightly plotted, with strong emotional hooks and fun, breezy dialogue.

Is it a superhero comic or a horror comic? (The other stories in Amazing Fantasy 15 are horror.) Is there a difference?
It's definitely got a subtext to say about the way superhero comics are written and read.