New Goblin to be born in ‘Amazing Spider-Man’ #51 and #52

[ARkadelphia]

I don't care anymore, at this rate i have accepted that they will kill mary jane, retire peter with miles the spider lantern, and that it will be so bad that they will Reboot the entire line again.

At least, there is still USM until Hickman leaves.

Even the X-line is proving to be Dead on Arrival thanks to brevoort.

You sound bitter, man

[Kurolegacy]

You sound bitter, man

Well least the name checks out

[Anthony W]

You sound bitter, man

I don't think so. People who are bitter about something still care. He is apathetic.

[Lee]

Well, for starters, Clark Kent isn't Peter Parker. It's the same faulty logic I've seen certain cultish fans defending Batman killing by showing Punisher doing it and going "oh, so that's okay then?"... they're not the same character, and Superman has almost always been written as a paragon of morality and justice.

But Superman does get angry. He loses his temper. He makes mistakes. But he's written in the way that Superman is supposed to be written.



I have plenty more extreme examples - and the follow-up apologies he makes to Lois for losing his temper or getting emotional.

Going back to Peter, he's never consistently been written an abusive or destructive. He doesn't just fly off the handle at MJ or is the type to abuse and traumatize his kids. Mary Jane grew up in an abusive household as an abused child; she'd never allow that kind of man to marry her or raise her children.

I don't think Peter Parker or Clark Kent should scream at their partners or throw things around in anger in front of their partners, period.

Concerning PAUL... I'm just going to laugh, because him being a loser deadbeat lowlife is more of a meme and I can get with that. Still doesn't absolve him of his part in genociding eight billion men, women, and children though. I feel like that strangely still gets brushed over, and it's not like anyone is alive to vouch for Paul's version of events either. I could go on a much longer informative tirade about the red flags he has actually raised and the women in my group who have shared their experiences regarding their unfavorable views of him in relation to past unhealthy relationships, but I'll save that for another time.

People here go on about it all the time, but it wasn't what was in the story. Paul was a researcher, the goal was knowledge, he had no idea that his dad had evil intentions. Paul is morally cleaner than Silver Age Tony Stark and Bruce Banner.

BND made the attempt, and it mostly worked, but the efforts were quickly diminished and lost. That's my point that whatever the intentions on restoring the civilian support cast, they've fallen aside hard in the last few years, more so than any run prior.

The Brand New Day run started 16 years ago. I think the civilian supporting cast has diminished somewhat since then, but not quickly.

And I'll even disagree with the claim JMS's run lacked it, because I've re-read it recently and it's great. If anything, I loved that after Peter unmasks, we have multiple stories shining a light on how the civilian friends and loved ones in his life react to this shocking news, from Jonah to Betty to even older love interests like Debra. They got more spotlight and growth in that window of time than all the years after. And don't get me started on how much Aunt May improved under the JMS run once she knew the truth of his identity and became more integral to his life as a supporting cast member (JMS actually says the loss of that dynamic with May hurts him more than the loss of the marriage, particularly as Peter's "coming out" as Spider-Man was widely praised by queer readers as similar to their own struggles with being open with their true selves to their parents. And then Marvel put him "back in the closet" with May for the sacred status quo...)

Some of the stories you're talking about were in Peter David's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, not JMS's Amazing Spider-Man.

JMS's Amazing Spider-Man didn't use the extended civilian supporting cast very much, outside of MJ and May, who both lived with Peter and both knew he was Spider-Man. Then they all went to live in a tower with the Avengers. Peter's relationships with ordinary people who only knew him as plain old Peter Parker fell by the wayside during that era of Amazing Spider-Man.

[Garlador]

*cracks knuckles*

I don't think Peter Parker or Clark Kent should scream at their partners or throw things around in anger in front of their partners, period.

People shouldn't make mistakes, but they do. And yelling at their partners is not some moral threshold that once crossed can never be mended again. If we demand perfection from these characters, they'll get very boring very quickly. As I said, even Clark has yelled and argued with Lois, and nobody is claiming they aren't THE most iconic couple at DC Comics.

Or let's go with Marvel's most reliable couple - Sue & Reed. Their history is rife with yelling, conflict, fights, and temper tantrums.



Our flaws and our anger make us HUMAN. Peter shouldn't yell at his spouse? Well... he has. He did. He apologized. So has Clark Kent, Reed Richards, Wally West, and every other hero whose partner will eventually stress them out, because that's part of love and marriage. One day they're your best friend, the next you might be at each other's throats, but so long as you work through it and resolve it in a healthy way then that's just part of the journey most couples have. And, I must emphasize, don't confuse expressions of anger and raising your voice as equivalent to chronic spousal abuse either. People make mistakes and that's what makes them interesting and relatable in fiction as well, especially the steps they take to atone for them. Peter's highest qualities is he always cools off and tries to make things right with the people he loves. There's literally decades of that history, up to the mid-2000s.

It didn't used to be sequestered off in "Peter's only got an edge if he's wearing the symbiote/possessed by Otto/infected by Norman".

People here go on about it all the time, but it wasn't what was in the story. Paul was a researcher, the goal was knowledge, he had no idea that his dad had evil intentions. Paul is morally cleaner than Silver Age Tony Stark and Bruce Banner.

Again, I'll have my Paul rants saved for another time, but Tony and Bruce didn't help exterminate billions of lives... but I have my own problems with 616 Tony and Bruce as well, so it's a race to the bottom here. I'll simply say that, again, multiple people have found Paul's sob story inconsistent and troublesome, his actions shady, all those who could vouch for his version of events conveniently dead, and the power imbalance he's held over MJ in the narrative has raised more than a few eyebrows. But talking about Paul right now is a bit of a deflection, because I'm not about to, again, compare the genocide of the human race instigated by a grown man to Uncle Ben's death due to the INACTION of a literal child.

Some of the stories you're talking about were in Peter David's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, not JMS's Amazing Spider-Man.

Yes. Created from the era and events of JMS's Amazing Spider-Man. Let's not get pedantic here. The argument was that civilian supporting characters were lessened during JMS's run... and I mentioned the characters that at that same time were being elevated and focused on, spinning off directly from JMS's work. Peter David absolutely capitalized on supporting the main title's narrative power by showcasing the impact it had on the normal people (as did many other writers).

JMS's Amazing Spider-Man didn't use the extended civilian supporting cast very much, outside of MJ and May, who both lived with Peter and both knew he was Spider-Man. Then they all went to live in a tower with the Avengers. Peter's relationships with ordinary people who only knew him as plain old Peter Parker fell by the wayside during that era of Amazing Spider-Man.

That's what happens when you expose your identity to the world, but even predating that, it's not like the cast was written out. As you yourself said, Spidey Office had plenty of books and stories focusing on the civilians. I've never been one to ascribe to ASM as the "only" book that matters in a Spider-Man continuity, after all.


And that's the issue right now for many readers; we don't have our Peter David's Friendly Neighborhood really filling the void yet. Again, we'll see what Weisman can do, but the supporting normal cast has all but vanished and/or regressed terribly.

[Spider-Tiger]

JMS's Amazing Spider-Man didn't use the extended civilian supporting cast very much, outside of MJ and May, who both lived with Peter and both knew he was Spider-Man. Then they all went to live in a tower with the Avengers. Peter's relationships with ordinary people who only knew him as plain old Peter Parker fell by the wayside during that era of Amazing Spider-Man.

And yet those relationships were incredibly rich, developed, nuanced and stories were intimate and character driven.

Frankly, I'd take quality character writing and development over quantity of characters. But everything about ASM nowadays is quantity over quality. All flash and no substance.

If anything, ASM needs to be scaled back with a focus on more grounded psychological intimacy with the core cast and less of this high concept absurdity.

[Garlador]

Getting back on topic, I have a long-standing policy not to entirely write-out any comic until it's actually out and the full context is understood. "Never judge a book by its cover", after all, and it's not like comics haven't used misleading or intentionally deceptive covers and solicitations before. For all we know, it could be Peter faking it or going undercover or something.

I don't feel like this run has necessarily earned the benefit of the doubt or my trust, but I maintain it's all in the execution. Last time was... underwhelming... for me. And the time before that. And the time before that. But I'll maintain my focus to judge a story in the present and not speculation on the future. I always hope for the best, while at the same time I have reasonable expectations based on the prior 50 issues.

So, no, I don't have any real enthusiasm for Spider-Goblin 2 1/2: The Smell of Fear, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely closed off to a good story being told with this situation. It remains bizarre given we JUST DID THIS, but... okay, we're doing this again. Round 2. Good luck.

[Frontier]

Ultimately, the audience decides. I don't envy anyone having to write the 4798th Superman adventure where he foils Brainiac's 359th scheme. But only a minuscule number of people have read every previous Superman vs Brainiac story, so even if something similar has happened before it's all going to be new to a lot of the audience.

It's a tough balancing act for long running legacy series: do something too familiar and some of the audience could get bored, do something too radical and some of the audience will feel you've strayed too far from the original premise of the series/characters. Bullseye murdering one of Daredevil's loved ones again would get a yawn from me, but Daredevil in space court with Ronan the Accuser would be too outside the series' wheelhouse for my tastes.

I think it's a shame we've lost so much of the civilian supporting cast and day-to-day soap opera that used to be a driving force in super-hero comics. It's easier to keep stories fresh when the focus is on the constantly evolving social lives and human drama of the cast, when the readership is so deeply invested in what happens next with Clark Kent's co-worker's personal struggles that it doesn't matter so much if a new villain is a bit of a dud or the spectacle of the next alien invasion doesn't top the spectacle of the previous alien invasion.

But now it's Wells basically repeating himself...in his own run.

The Brand New Day run made extensive use of the civilian supporting cast, more so than the series had since the very early '90s. Dan Slott's run was also good with it, though quite a few of them were ordinary people in an extraordinary workplace. I agree that the current run, from what I've read of it, is lacking in that regard. I don't think it's the most lacking ASM run for the civilian supporting cast, that would be JMS's run.

I think the problem was the character writing and some of the characters involved just wasn't great/all that interesting.

It's why Dexter Bennet and Grady Scraps aren't on any top 20 supporting cast lists (though they may be on some).

Well, now I know Sue Storm once ended up buck-naked after forcefielding herself out of her costume!

[Garlador]

Well, now I know Sue Storm once ended up buck-naked after forcefielding herself out of her costume!

I guess it's a good thing Reed made spares.

[Huntsman Spider]

But now it's Wells basically repeating himself...in his own run.

I think the problem was the character writing and some of the characters involved just wasn't great/all that interesting.

It's why Dexter Bennet and Grady Scraps aren't on any top 20 supporting cast lists (though they may be on some).

Well, now I know Sue Storm once ended up buck-naked after forcefielding herself out of her costume!

On the subject of Dexter Bennet, he was probably not meant to be very well-liked, since unlike J. Jonah Jameson, he was a sleazebag with nothing in the way of journalistic integrity or standards.

[Lee]

*cracks knuckles*

People shouldn't make mistakes, but they do. And yelling at their partners is not some moral threshold that once crossed can never be mended again. If we demand perfection from these characters, they'll get very boring very quickly. As I said, even Clark has yelled and argued with Lois, and nobody is claiming they aren't THE most iconic couple at DC Comics.

Or let's go with Marvel's most reliable couple - Sue & Reed. Their history is rife with yelling, conflict, fights, and temper tantrums.



Our flaws and our anger make us HUMAN. Peter shouldn't yell at his spouse? Well... he has. He did. He apologized. So has Clark Kent, Reed Richards, Wally West, and every other hero whose partner will eventually stress them out, because that's part of love and marriage. One day they're your best friend, the next you might be at each other's throats, but so long as you work through it and resolve it in a healthy way then that's just part of the journey most couples have. And, I must emphasize, don't confuse expressions of anger and raising your voice as equivalent to chronic spousal abuse either. People make mistakes and that's what makes them interesting and relatable in fiction as well, especially the steps they take to atone for them. Peter's highest qualities is he always cools off and tries to make things right with the people he loves. There's literally decades of that history, up to the mid-2000s.

It didn't used to be sequestered off in "Peter's only got an edge if he's wearing the symbiote/possessed by Otto/infected by Norman".

I don't think Peter Parker or Clark Kent should scream in anger at their romantic partners or smash furniture in front of them. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

Yes. Created from the era and events of JMS's Amazing Spider-Man. Let's not get pedantic here. The argument was that civilian supporting characters were lessened during JMS's run... and I mentioned the characters that at that same time were being elevated and focused on, spinning off directly from JMS's work.

I specifically said JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man didn't use the civilian supporting cast very much. You said you thought JMS's run on Amazing Spider-Man did make good use of the civilian supporting cast, and to support your argument you gave examples that were from a different comic by a different writer.

I try to choose my words carefully so that they're not open to misinterpretation. When I said "JMS's Amazing Spider-Man" I meant "issues of Amazing Spider-Man written by JMS". I did not mean "issues of Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man written by Peter David".

[Frontier]

I don't think Peter Parker or Clark Kent should scream in anger at their romantic partners or smash furniture in front of them. Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

Do you at least agree they should have appropriate emotional reactions/outbursts depending on the situation?

[Xix25]

Honestly, I don't get how this version of the Spider-Goblin/Evil Peter is supposed to be an interesting plot hook. They managed to make the previous version into a mess, and I'm supposed to be hyped up for a rerun of the same? Don't see how people can support this level of storytelling.

[xpyred]

Do we know for sure it's Peter as the goblin? Has anyone mentioned the possibility of it being Ben this time around considering Queen Goblin is around with that Winkler machine.

[Frontier]

Do we know for sure it's Peter as the goblin? Has anyone mentioned the possibility of it being Ben this time around considering Queen Goblin is around with that Winkler machine.

"Peter Parker is...the Spider-Goblin."