2017-2023 Wonder Woman ongoing comic has been incredibly frustrating

[HsssH]

*Although he also claimed that DC's original plan was much worse so he stepped in with his plan much like how Morrison said he did Superman and the Authority because he didn't like their original plan of turning Superman into a right wing reactionary war monger and Simone said she did Nu52 Batgirl because she was apalled by their original plan for Barbara Gordon.

Eventually we got a theory that this might have been Didio's strategy on how to recruit writers - convince the writer that if he doesn't take the job then the character will eat ****.

Brian Azzarello told on an interview on Spain that he hopped on the Wonder Woman bagon because, acording to him, DC original plans were so horrible that Azzarello felt like he had to take the mantle.

What's worse it's, I can see myself believing it.

I suspect that the plan was to write her exactly how Johns wrote her in JL.

[Psy-lock]

Maybe this was their original plan

[I'm a Fish]

So it's just....the exact plot Justice League: The Animated Series used for Hawkgril?

[Gaius]

So it's just....the exact plot Justice League: The Animated Series used for Hawkgril?

Their Superman is just Smallville and Green Lantern is "give all Hal's stuff to John". They're all just "throw Kingdom Come, DCAU, and Smallville" into a blender.

[Nyssane]

Brian Azzarello told on an interview on Spain that he hopped on the Wonder Woman bagon because, acording to him, DC original plans were so horrible that Azzarello felt like he had to take the mantle.

What's worse it's, I can see myself believing it.

Probably something like "Wonder Woman does feminist stuff and doesn't grab men by the balls".

[Garrac]

Probably something like "Wonder Woman does feminist stuff and doesn't grab men by the balls".

I think you're forgetting how feminist was the average new52 cómic, lol

[WonderLight789]

It doesn't really matter how they treat her or not, or whatever our opinions are of it. I was saying I don't see WB/DC going back on stuff like Daddy Zeus because it's probably, at least partially, prep work for when early WW goes public domain. It's a legal insurance tactic.

How it will effect is that while I think DC will allow occasional stuff like Historia where the Daddy Zeus origin is fully put on blast and roundly rejected, all major future WW projects will make sure to at least have some reference to Diana being Zeus' daughter. Just look at how there was that big scene in SSKJL where Diana goes on specific speech about how everything important about her (birth, powers, bracelets, the lasso) comes from Zeus.

I doubt that is the reason. DC has shown little interes in WW in general for the longest time. Why would they care so much about this topic in particular? If that was the case, why don't they change batman and superman's origins? They are going PD before her.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

A very good point. I'll buy DC put actual thought and prep work into this when they restore the post crisis 'Superman was BORN IN AMERICA and hates immigrants' origin, or do anything with Batman that is not dead parents, bat flew through window, became batmans.

[Gaius]

I doubt that is the reason. DC has shown little interes in WW in general for the longest time. Why would they care so much about this topic in particular? If that was the case, why don't they change batman and superman's origins? They are going PD before her.

Never said it was the only reason. I have no doubt misogyny and writers being mythologically illiterate played a role in demoting Diana to Zeus’s kid.

In regards to Superman and Batman? Well it’s because the iconic verisons of those characters and the stuff associated with them won’t be going into PD long after the earliest incarnations do. Whereas most of the “iconic” stuff people associate with WW is created in the first few two years or is already public domain.

[Pinsir]

I said all this a couple months ago and they pilloried me for it

Yeah Vol 5 of WW was a wet bag. Even the much beloved Rebirth Rucka run has a major flaw in that its a clap-back to another run and is not a self-contained story. Unless you read Azzarello's story and were aware of the controversy around it, you wouldn't understand the full context of the Rebirth story. Fundamentally, its a story driven by hatred and Wonder Woman is about fighting with love (and fists).

[bardkeep]

This sentiment fascinates me because it assumes that the Post Crisis era WW was in a better place, and I don’t really agree with that. Sure Rucka’s first run is fantastic - but there’s no ending! Everything he did got blown up/ruined, and his Diana ends up with everyone hating her for killing Lord. And Rucka himself was kinda guilty of this with what he did to the status quo Jimenez set up. Simone is in the same boat, her run cut short and hamstrung by editorial edicts. Then right before the New 52 they had rebooted her with JMS, and the truly awful Amazons Attack made the Amazons into kill happy morons who got punked by Circe.

While the New 52 might have been the first successful story that doubled down on the Amazons being “warriors” or making Diana the killer of the Trinity - it wasn’t the first. In a way it was simply the culmination of a trend that started in Post Crisis with Kingdom Come and Infinite Crisis.

If you really want to get to the heart of it: Wonder Woman is still suffering from Kanaghier being her longest writer ever. While Superman and Batman had a lot of their Mythos built up in the Pre-Crisis era, WW merely existed. Superman as we know him started in the Silver Age, Batman in the Bronze Age, but Wondy didn’t start to take her modern form until Perez. And like Marston before him, the immediate successors to Perez didn’t build on his foundation as well as they could have. For the most part Diana constantly lurches from one major status quo shift to the next.

The Post-Crisis era was also a huge mess, but at least the bare essentials like her origin and basic lore were consistent and built from Perez's run. And the status quo was variable, but the ambassador role was a major through-thread at least until the Heinboot. There's no foundation at all anymore. They can't even keep her base power set straight - not just continuity things like her level of strength/speed/invulnerability or auxiliary powers like talking to animals or breathing in space, totally basic stuff like whether or not she can fly or has super speed.

Rebirth is a FAR thinner, flimsier foundation than Perez's run and no one's even built from it directly. The situation's only gotten worse with Tom King - we're 7 issues in, but we've barely even seen her supporting cast (Etta hasn't appeared at all!), the only power she definitely has is super strength, and the only villains who've been more than cannon fodder are Sovereign and Steel.

That said, I agree that at the end of the day a lot of it goes back to Kanigher.

[WonderLight789]

Never said it was the only reason. I have no doubt misogyny and writers being mythologically illiterate played a role in demoting Diana to Zeus’s kid.

In regards to Superman and Batman? Well it’s because the iconic verisons of those characters and the stuff associated with them won’t be going into PD long after the earliest incarnations do. Whereas most of the “iconic” stuff people associate with WW is created in the first few two years or is already public domain.

I find it hard to believe that DC would care that much. Why? They have never cared about what happens in the WW corner of the DCU. The daddy zeus thing won't stop anybody from using the PD stuff, and potentially getting a hit out of it that they can't touch. So even if they focus more on zeus origin. It is not like that is going to make them tons of money, if they keep handling her lore like they have up until now.

[John Venus]

So it's just....the exact plot Justice League: The Animated Series used for Hawkgril?

For additional context, the Ultimate Wonder Woman is from the Wizard fan magazine. Nothing associated with DC.

Hawkgirl being a traitor was a suggestion made by Paul Levitz when the JL show was being developed. Not sure if this specific story line inspired it but around the time Hawkman's continuity was spiralling into chaos, one of the story lines that was suggested was that the Hawkman and Hawkgirl on Justice League at the time were actually spies. And years prior to that Tony Isabella had done the 'Shadow War of Hawkman' story arc wherein the Thanagarians were infiltrating the earth.

Probably something like "Wonder Woman does feminist stuff and doesn't grab men by the balls".

I highly doubt the creative brain trust that gave us Winnick's Catwoman, Lodbell's Red Hood & The Outlaws or Voodoo had any interesting in telling feminist stories.

[Pinsir]

For additional context, the Ultimate Wonder Woman is from the Wizard fan magazine. Nothing associated with DC.

Hawkgirl being a traitor was a suggestion made by Paul Levitz when the JL show was being developed. Not sure if this specific story line inspired it but around the time Hawkman's continuity was spiralling into chaos, one of the story lines that was suggested was that the Hawkman and Hawkgirl on Justice League at the time were actually spies. And years prior to that Tony Isabella had done the 'Shadow War of Hawkman' story arc wherein the Thanagarians were infiltrating the earth.



I highly doubt the creative brain trust that gave us Winnick's Catwoman, Lodbell's Red Hood & The Outlaws or Voodoo had any interesting in telling feminist stories.

I liked that Voodoo run, at least when Ron Mars was writing it

[HsssH]

Rebirth is a FAR thinner, flimsier foundation than Perez's run and no one's even built from it directly.

Maybe it wouldn't be as thin if people involved were interested in building things instead of tearing them down. Or you know, acting like maaaaaybe clay origin is back for social media credits.