2017-2023 Wonder Woman ongoing comic has been incredibly frustrating

[bardkeep]

I think this is pretty much a consensus opinion. The only n52/Rebirth runs even worth reading are Rucka and Orlando (Azzarello/Chiang gets a big boost from Chiang's art but I just can't back it when its misogyny runs so deep). Other than that the best we got was the opening arc of the Cloonan/Conrad run and even that was a just-okay story carried by Travis Moore.

King/Sampere has been back and forth with me (even within individual issues there'll be moments I really enjoy and moments I viscerally dislike...), but after rereading in one go I think it actually reads worse in trade format. All of its flaws become really apparent. The artwork is GORGEOUS and I appreciate that it's something totally new, but it's honestly kinda sad that this is regarded as her best run in years when it's not even in the same stratosphere as the first 7 issues of the acclaimed Post-Crisis runs like Perez and Rucka's first run.

Historia has single-handedly kept my faith in the franchise alive but honestly I don't think the main ongoing is ever going to recover from n52. We'll see though, would love to be proven wrong.

[Vordan]

I think this is pretty much a consensus opinion. The only n52/Rebirth runs even worth reading are Rucka and Orlando (Azzarello/Chiang gets a big boost from Chiang's art but I just can't back it when its misogyny runs so deep). Other than that the best we got was the opening arc of the Cloonan/Conrad run and even that was a just-okay story carried by Travis Moore.

King/Sampere has been back and forth with me (even within individual issues there'll be moments I really enjoy and moments I viscerally dislike...), but after rereading in one go I think it actually reads worse in trade format. All of its flaws become really apparent. The artwork is GORGEOUS and I appreciate that it's something totally new, but it's honestly kinda sad that this is regarded as her best run in years when it's not even in the same stratosphere as the first 7 issues of the acclaimed Post-Crisis runs like Perez and Rucka's first run.

Historia has single-handedly kept my faith in the franchise alive but honestly I don't think the main ongoing is ever going to recover from n52. We'll see though, would love to be proven wrong.

This sentiment fascinates me because it assumes that the Post Crisis era WW was in a better place, and I don’t really agree with that. Sure Rucka’s first run is fantastic - but there’s no ending! Everything he did got blown up/ruined, and his Diana ends up with everyone hating her for killing Lord. And Rucka himself was kinda guilty of this with what he did to the status quo Jimenez set up. Simone is in the same boat, her run cut short and hamstrung by editorial edicts. Then right before the New 52 they had rebooted her with JMS, and the truly awful Amazons Attack made the Amazons into kill happy morons who got punked by Circe.

While the New 52 might have been the first successful story that doubled down on the Amazons being “warriors” or making Diana the killer of the Trinity - it wasn’t the first. In a way it was simply the culmination of a trend that started in Post Crisis with Kingdom Come and Infinite Crisis.

If you really want to get to the heart of it: Wonder Woman is still suffering from Kanaghier being her longest writer ever. While Superman and Batman had a lot of their Mythos built up in the Pre-Crisis era, WW merely existed. Superman as we know him started in the Silver Age, Batman in the Bronze Age, but Wondy didn’t start to take her modern form until Perez. And like Marston before him, the immediate successors to Perez didn’t build on his foundation as well as they could have. For the most part Diana constantly lurches from one major status quo shift to the next.

[Alpha]

I disagree with you there. Wonder Woman was well set up right there in the 40s. Superman only got there in the silver age, but Wonder Woman hit the ground running. Her universe was well set up from the start, and her characterization was on point.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I feel like the argument being made here is that Kanigher didn't follow up on it. Alot of elements established by Marston would be ignored or shelfed, so it became a stale thing by the time O'Neil came along and did what he would do with every other book he would go on to do, and try to make it more grounded and world connected....Which would then get undone by Kanigher with yet another status quo shift.

Post crisis had alot of them, true. But its easy to overlook that over the course of pre crisis, Wonder Woman went from
Marston era status quo with Etta Candy, the Holliday girls, based out of Washington DC, and all that.
A 20 year long Kanigher run wherin he barely bothered cause he didn't actually care.
Mod era status quo wherin she moves to Greenwich Village, New York and runs a clothing shoppe while fighting crime without powers.
Kanigher return status quo shift wherin Diana works for the United Nations
Another status quo shift in which Steve is brought back to life
A year long period in which the book focused on Earth-2 and tried to capture the status quo of the tv show.
Then we get the original status quo back but Steve gets killed by another writer who makes Diana a NASA astronaut based out of Texas.
Then another writer takes Diana back to New York
And then Conway has the gods reboot everyones memory so Diana is supposedly only leaving Paradise Island for the first time in the early 80s, and gets a job at the pentagon alongside Steve, Etta, and Darnell.

The inability to follow up on what Perez established was tragically naught but a repeat of the inability to follow up on what Marston established.

[Gaius]

This sentiment fascinates me because it assumes that the Post Crisis era WW was in a better place, and I don’t really agree with that. Sure Rucka’s first run is fantastic - but there’s no ending! Everything he did got blown up/ruined, and his Diana ends up with everyone hating her for killing Lord. And Rucka himself was kinda guilty of this with what he did to the status quo Jimenez set up. Simone is in the same boat, her run cut short and hamstrung by editorial edicts. Then right before the New 52 they had rebooted her with JMS, and the truly awful Amazons Attack made the Amazons into kill happy morons who got punked by Circe.

While the New 52 might have been the first successful story that doubled down on the Amazons being “warriors” or making Diana the killer of the Trinity - it wasn’t the first. In a way it was simply the culmination of a trend that started in Post Crisis with Kingdom Come and Infinite Crisis.

If you really want to get to the heart of it: Wonder Woman is still suffering from Kanaghier being her longest writer ever. While Superman and Batman had a lot of their Mythos built up in the Pre-Crisis era, WW merely existed. Superman as we know him started in the Silver Age, Batman in the Bronze Age, but Wondy didn’t start to take her modern form until Perez. And like Marston before him, the immediate successors to Perez didn’t build on his foundation as well as they could have. For the most part Diana constantly lurches from one major status quo shift to the next.

Can't speak for Bardkeep for me it's where the natural endpoint of kicked off with Waid in Kingdom Come ends, Diana is fully the cool aloof slay queen and the Amazons are the fully misogynistic barbarians many at DC wanted them to be. And given how popular it was and still is with many DC fans wanting that to be the WW that shows up in Gunn's DCU I think it's fair read.

Plus the articles/news about how DC's been preparing for when the earliest versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman all enter public domain I fully expect DC to keep at least one foot planted with that version as it's so far removed from the earliest WW and thus would be the easiest to define it from potential PD versions and in lawsuits.

[Vordan]

I feel like the argument being made here is that Kanigher didn't follow up on it. Alot of elements established by Marston would be ignored or shelfed, so it became a stale thing by the time O'Neil came along and did what he would do with every other book he would go on to do, and try to make it more grounded and world connected....Which would then get undone by Kanigher with yet another status quo shift.

Post crisis had alot of them, true. But its easy to overlook that over the course of pre crisis, Wonder Woman went from
Marston era status quo with Etta Candy, the Holliday girls, based out of Washington DC, and all that.
A 20 year long Kanigher run wherin he barely bothered cause he didn't actually care.
Mod era status quo wherin she moves to Greenwich Village, New York and runs a clothing shoppe while fighting crime without powers.
Kanigher return status quo shift wherin Diana works for the United Nations
Another status quo shift in which Steve is brought back to life
A year long period in which the book focused on Earth-2 and tried to capture the status quo of the tv show.
Then we get the original status quo back but Steve gets killed by another writer who makes Diana a NASA astronaut based out of Texas.
Then another writer takes Diana back to New York
And then Conway has the gods reboot everyones memory so Diana is supposedly only leaving Paradise Island for the first time in the early 80s, and gets a job at the pentagon alongside Steve, Etta, and Darnell.

The inability to follow up on what Perez established was tragically naught but a repeat of the inability to follow up on what Marston established.

Yeah my argument is not that she didn’t have a good foundation - it’s that they didn’t build on it. With Wondy they’re constantly throwing the baby out with the bath water. Her and Supes are constantly being rebooted and revamped while Batman has been fairly consistent since O’Neil/Miller revamped him.

Can't speak for Bardkeep for me it's where the natural endpoint of kicked off with Waid in Kingdom Come ends, Diana is fully the cool aloof slay queen and the Amazons are the fully misogynistic barbarians many at DC wanted them to be. And given how popular it was and still is with many DC fans wanting that to be the WW that shows up in Gunn's DCU I think it's fair read.

Plus the articles/news about how DC's been preparing for when the earliest versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman all enter public domain I fully expect DC to keep at least one foot planted with that version as it's so far removed from the earliest WW and thus would be the easiest to define it from potential PD versions and in lawsuits.

I believe I’ve said something similar in the past. With the clay baby origin going PD, it’s in the interest of WB to emphasize the demigod origin because PD Wonder Woman won’t be able to use that, and if WB can cement that as the “real” WW it means that they get to continue to emphasize that their Wonder Woman is the “true” one. But if the video game goes clay baby and is a success, that might be enough to change things back.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

It would be a stupid thing for DC to build all their hopes on, since Zeus is public domain and establishing anyone to be his child would be shaky ground at best for them to claim ownership of.
Heck, according to Greek mythology, Zeus would be Wonder Womans great grandfather already, so precedent is already established.

[HsssH]

Yeah, if you were worried about PD thing then you most likely wouldn't make Zeus her father who himself is public domain character. If that was priority and DC wanted stronger ties to Greek mythology then they would just have invented a new Greek god to be her father. Alternatively we can just write it down on DC being stupid.

Either way I think there is way too much focus on her origin in these discussions. I think it is unlikely that in any upcoming WW projects there will be much focus on it.

[Shaggy]

The only n52/Rebirth runs even worth reading are Rucka and Orlando (Azzarello/Chiang gets a big boost from Chiang's art but I just can't back it when its misogyny runs so deep).

What do you mean, exactly, when you say that the Azzarello run is deeply misogynistic? The way Amazons are depicted (and the implication that women somehow use and discard men)?

[Gaius]

Yeah my argument is not that she didn’t have a good foundation - it’s that they didn’t build on it. With Wondy they’re constantly throwing the baby out with the bath water. Her and Supes are constantly being rebooted and revamped while Batman has been fairly consistent since O’Neil/Miller revamped him.

I believe I’ve said something similar in the past. With the clay baby origin going PD, it’s in the interest of WB to emphasize the demigod origin because PD Wonder Woman won’t be able to use that, and if WB can cement that as the “real” WW it means that they get to continue to emphasize that their Wonder Woman is the “true” one. But if the video game goes clay baby and is a success, that might be enough to change things back.

Depends on even if the the video game goes into her origin. If they can't do clay, I wouldn't mind if they don't but I can't help but notice just about major WW adaptations/appearances since the New 52 have a point where it's made explicitly clear she is Zeus' daughter whereas before the clay origin was only made vague reference to unless it was an origin.

Yeah, if you were worried about PD thing then you most likely wouldn't make Zeus her father who himself is public domain character. If that was priority and DC wanted stronger ties to Greek mythology then they would just have invented a new Greek god to be her father. Alternatively we can just write it down on DC being stupid.

Either way I think there is way too much focus on her origin in these discussions. I think it is unlikely that in any upcoming WW projects there will be much focus on it.

Zeus already being public domain wouldn't matter, it's the specific thing of him being her father is the unique concept that WB/DC will be able to defend in court and define their version. IP holders like the Doyles estate have gone to court over far less defendable concepts, so I can see Warners doing the same.

[WonderLight789]

Depends on even if the the video game goes into her origin. If they can't do clay, I wouldn't mind if they don't but I can't help but notice just about major WW adaptations/appearances since the New 52 have a point where it's made explicitly clear she is Zeus' daughter whereas before the clay origin was only made vague reference to unless it was an origin.



Zeus already being public domain wouldn't matter, it's the specific thing of him being her father is the unique concept that WB/DC will be able to defend in court and define their version. IP holders like the Doyles estate have gone to court over far less defendable concepts, so I can see Warners doing the same.

If they will keep treating WW and her lore like they have up until now. It doesn't change a thing if they focus on daddy zeus as their WW version that won't go PD in a long time. How is that going to affect the way they usually use her, which is terrible 90% of the time?

[Gaius]

If they will keep treating WW and her lore like they have up until now. It doesn't change a thing if they focus on daddy zeus as their WW version that won't go PD in a long time. How is that going to affect the way they usually use her, which is terrible 90% of the time?

It doesn't really matter how they treat her or not, or whatever our opinions are of it. I was saying I don't see WB/DC going back on stuff like Daddy Zeus because it's probably, at least partially, prep work for when early WW goes public domain. It's a legal insurance tactic.

How it will effect is that while I think DC will allow occasional stuff like Historia where the Daddy Zeus origin is fully put on blast and roundly rejected, all major future WW projects will make sure to at least have some reference to Diana being Zeus' daughter. Just look at how there was that big scene in SSKJL where Diana goes on specific speech about how everything important about her (birth, powers, bracelets, the lasso) comes from Zeus.

[John Venus]

I don't buy the PD argument. If that was the case why not change Clark being rocketed to Earth from Krypton by Jor-El and Lara-El? Or Bruce Wayne's parents getting gunned in crime alley? Because that stuff is going to end up in PD too yet they are keeping it.

I believe the decision to change her origin is because:

a) Didio has always stated he wanted to simplify the DCU. He hates the Matrix Supergirl backstory, never liked all the legacy heroes no matter how successful and any concept like Lords of Order that couldn't be simplified was an anathema to his view on the DCU.

b) Multiple writers have always complained that WW is too hard to get, their origin is too complicated. Even Azzarello has claimed that he came up with the Zeus origin because he wanted to simplify her*. And there have been others in the industry who praise Azzarello for simplifying WW's backstory. Turning her into angry warrior woman who enjoys fighting and killing, like a dog needing to be put on a leash by Superman and Batman and lectured about morality was their idea of fixing WW. In it's own it goes back to assuming that Wonder Woman is supposed to be an extension, a foil to Superman and Batman and that her world and her character is small subset of the DCU and not her as a protagonist of a mythology in it's own right.


*Although he also claimed that DC's original plan was much worse so he stepped in with his plan much like how Morrison said he did Superman and the Authority because he didn't like their original plan of turning Superman into a right wing reactionary war monger and Simone said she did Nu52 Batgirl because she was apalled by their original plan for Barbara Gordon.

[Shaggy]

I don't buy the PD argument. If that was the case why not change Clark being rocketed to Earth from Krypton by Jor-El and Lara-El? Or Bruce Wayne's parents getting gunned in crime alley? Because that stuff is going to end up in PD too yet they are keeping it.

I believe the decision to change her origin is because:

a) Didio has always stated he wanted to simplify the DCU. He hates the Matrix Supergirl backstory, never liked all the legacy heroes no matter how successful and any concept like Lords of Order that couldn't be simplified was an anathema to his view on the DCU.

b) Multiple writers have always complained that WW is too hard to get, their origin is too complicated. Even Azzarello has claimed that he came up with the Zeus origin because he wanted to simplify her*. And there have been others in the industry who praise Azzarello for simplifying WW's backstory. Turning her into angry warrior woman who enjoys fighting and killing, like a dog needing to be put on a leash by Superman and Batman and lectured about morality was their idea of fixing WW. In it's own it goes back to assuming that Wonder Woman is supposed to be an extension, a foil to Superman and Batman and that her world and her character is small subset of the DCU and not her as a protagonist of a mythology in it's own right.


*Although he also claimed that DC's original plan was much worse so he stepped in with his plan much like how Morrison said he did Superman and the Authority because he didn't like their original plan of turning Superman into a right wing reactionary war monger and Simone said she did Nu52 Batgirl because she was apalled by their original plan for Barbara Gordon.

Do we know what the original New 52 plans for WW and Batgirl were?

[Garrac]

Do we know what the original New 52 plans for WW and Batgirl were?

Brian Azzarello told on an interview on Spain that he hopped on the Wonder Woman bagon because, acording to him, DC original plans were so horrible that Azzarello felt like he had to take the mantle.

What's worse it's, I can see myself believing it.