Does what Percy did to Beast remind anyone of Daenerys at the end of GoT?

[Havok83]

Beast had dark moments, but was overall portrayed as good guy who's primarily invested in finding more peaceful solutions. He was also a protagonist as late as 2018, when he was on Havok's unofficial X-Men team in Astonishing X-Men. Most people were shocked by what Beast did in X-Force, because prior to X-Force, who really saw him attempting genocide and turning Wolverine into his slave?

Dany is the same: she had questionable moments, could be very vindictive, and had no problems killing her enemies in horrible and cruel ways. She often let her emotions get to her, and one of her prime emotions was anger. Even in the show, people recognized her potential danger if she didn't have her friends grounding her But overall, she was a well-meaning person who did a lot of good.

Beast's like Dany in a lot of ways, in that there were red flags in the past. They were very obviously good people, but had the potential to go down a dark path if they let their worst impulses guide them. But that doesn't mean they could just go from A to Z without first going through the rest of the alphabet.

Beast committed genocide in Astonishing X-men and Secret Avengers. Alot of people were not shocked by him doing so in X-Force, bc he's done that before. Nothing Beast did shocked me until he killed Wolverine and tahts the part I couldnt really justify anymore but by that point he had already arguably 10 years worth of shtty acts under his belt to get to that point (and heck some people argue even his descent has been going on even longer)

I still maintain that Dany was still set up to be the main protagonist going into that final episode. there was 8 years worth of build up for her to take her rightful place on the thrown and we were intended to root for her until the very last minute. I dont take her killing people as evidence that she was destined to go all mad queen evil at the end. Within that universe every leader killed. To not do so would be to show weakness and thats something she had to learn especially early on when she was quite naive. To my knwoledge I dont recall her murdering people unjust. It was largely war criminals and in defense of freeing slaves and opressed people.

Beast didnt have any writing that put him on a pedestal like that. If you went into X-Force liking and rooting for Beast, then it was bc you had already been a fan , not bc any of the writing was supporting that. He had been awful, down to his core for a while and the heel turn did not happen in X-Force and thats a big difference between he and Dany. Hers was very abrupt. Beast's was gradual

The Beasts that woke up from the pods that Beast hid in historical sites, NimrodBeast, Ego moon beast, Broodbeast ectera were one and all worse then Dark Beast in my mind. Beast's actions in the present may not have been worse then Dark Beast just yet but the case that they inevitably would was made.

Yeah I think Krakoa Beast is worse than Dark Beast

[Exodus]

Wasn't the point of Daenery's downfall that she was absolutely obsessed with gaining the power of her family back? She could have just walked away in many situations but she kept colonizing city after city after city with the only end goal to take over the country that had belonged "rightfully" to her family. Sounds pretty evil and obsessed to me,.....she could have just stayed in one of the citys she had taken over and become a "kind ruler" but her obsession and entitlement grew so much that in the end, she did whatever necessary to taken over the world. She became a ruler like anyone else but with better rhetoric of "just wanting to free the people" but not "free enough that they do not need her anymore". No, honey, you want to gain control over people.

She was at war and decided to destroy a city of people who did not had any intention to follow her "leadership". How can someone obsessed with power accept a kingdom that is not seeing her as a salvation? Only with violence, was the point the show tried to make. I think as a gender narrative, the early seasons made a great point that women in this world, can only be free by moving up. only on top is a certain autonomy for them possible. Hence, Daenery's action can only lead her up towards the throne because everything else would mean marginality.

I never really understand why people have been that surprised about her actions in the final season. The show maybe have rushed her development in the last episodes way to much. But what she did was indeed in line with her development in the entire show.

[Rift]

Beast committed genocide in Astonishing X-men and Secret Avengers. Alot of people were not shocked by him doing so in X-Force, bc he's done that before. Nothing Beast did shocked me until he killed Wolverine and tahts the part I couldnt really justify anymore but by that point he had already arguably 10 years worth of shtty acts under his belt to get to that point (and heck some people argue even his descent has been going on even longer)

I still maintain that Dany was still set up to be the main protagonist going into that final episode. there was 8 years worth of build up for her to take her rightful place on the thrown and we were intended to root for her until the very last minute. I dont take her killing people as evidence that she was destined to go all mad queen evil at the end. Within that universe every leader killed. To not do so would be to show weakness and thats something she had to learn especially early on when she was quite naive. To my knwoledge I dont recall her murdering people unjust. It was largely war criminals and in defense of freeing slaves and opressed people.

Beast didnt have any writing that put him on a pedestal like that. If you went into X-Force liking and rooting for Beast, then it was bc you had already been a fan , not bc any of the writing was supporting that. He had been awful, down to his core for a while and the heel turn did not happen in X-Force and thats a big difference between he and Dany. Hers was very abrupt. Beast's was gradual

Yeah I think Krakoa Beast is worse than Dark Beast

His Illuminati stuff is a different beast. (Pun intended.) The world genocides were an attempt to prevent their own world from being destroyed, and it was a latch-ditch effort when nothing else was working. Beast was actually one of the members vehemently unwilling to go through with it at first, and Namor was the one who pulled the trigger. We got a couple of issues of Beast and other Illuminati members struggling with the guilt of their actions. Even after everything the Illuminati did, Beast was willing to turn himself in to the authorities once the problem was solved.

So yeah, red flag. There was potential for him to do something awful for the greater good. Yeah, he indirectly committed genocide. But that's still jumping all the way to Z because the circumstances were so different from what was going on in X-Force. He wasn't one of the main characters like Dany, he wasn't as glorified. But he was firmly sympathetic for the most part.

As for Dany, she approved of her abusive brother's very violent and painful death. She even insisted on watching it. She enjoyed hearing the abortion witch scream as she burned to death. Even when she was killing bad people, she would go out of their way to make sure they suffered. She chose to kill Samwell's dad and brother instead of locking them up, like Tyrion suggested. It makes sense why she'd enjoy seeing bad people suffer, but it was still cruel. Again, I think her killing all those innocent people in season 8 were in character. But like Beast, while she had the potential to turn evil, it was still a big jump.

The X-Force example shouldn't be read in a bubble. It's Beast's equivalent of season 8.

[Havok83]

His Illuminati stuff is a different beast. (Pun intended.) The world genocides were an attempt to prevent their own world from being destroyed, and it was a latch-ditch effort when nothing else was working. Beast was actually one of the members vehemently unwilling to go through with it at first, and Namor was the one who pulled the trigger. We got a couple of issues of Beast and other Illuminati members struggling with the guilt of their actions. Even after everything the Illuminati did, Beast was willing to turn himself in to the authorities once the problem was solved.

So yeah, red flag. There was potential for him to do something awful for the greater good. Yeah, he indirectly committed genocide. But that's still jumping all the way to Z because the circumstances were so different from what was going on in X-Force. He wasn't one of the main characters like Dany, he wasn't as glorified. But he was firmly sympathetic for the most part.

As for Dany, she approved of her abusive brother's very violent and painful death. She even insisted on watching it. She enjoyed hearing the abortion witch scream as she burned to death. Even when she was killing bad people, she would go out of their way to make sure they suffered. She chose to kill Samwell's dad and brother instead of locking them up, like Tyrion suggested. It makes sense why she'd enjoy seeing bad people suffer, but it was still cruel. Again, I think her killing all those innocent people in season 8 were in character. But like Beast, while she had the potential to turn evil, it was still a big jump.

The X-Force example shouldn't be read in a bubble. It's Beast's equivalent of season 8.

I dont see how its different. The genocide he committed in X-Force, he rationalized was for the greater good of Krakoa. Thats the problem with Beast. He did heinous things yet found a way to justify it and paint himself as the good guy. The ends justified the means has been his motto. Thats been a core characteristic of him for a while now

[Rift]

I dont see how its different. The genocide he committed in X-Force, he rationalized was for the greater good of Krakoa. Thats the problem with Beast. He did heinous things yet found a way to justify it and paint himself as the good guy. The ends justified the means has been his motto. Thats been a core characteristic of him for a while now

It's very different. Pre-X-Force Beast and his crew went to murder as a last resort, Beast couldn't pull the trigger when the chips were down, felt severe guilt for the genocide the Illuminati had committed, and was willing to be punished for being part of the their plans. Like the X-Force version, he had a very "the ends justify the means" view of situations. But he was under a lot more pressure to do what he did, felt a lot more guilt for his (less direct) involvement, and had the self-awareness to realize what he was doing was wrong and would accept punishment for it.

That Beast wasn't some mustache-twirling villain like X-Force Beast. He didn't threaten children or kidnap people. He was quick to show remorse. When Inhumans were an immediate threat to mutants, he was one of the mutants who chose not to seek revenge, but instead chose handle things peacefully. Because in the end, despite all the things he did, he had a heart and felt for the people who were hurting.

You don't get that with X-Force Beast. And it's even worse because, unlike the Illuminati-era Beast, he has more people to rely on, and his problems are much smaller. Somehow this Beast is much less sympathetic and nuanced.

[Walking Wake]

Beast had dark moments, but was overall portrayed as good guy who's primarily invested in finding more peaceful solutions. He was also a protagonist as late as 2018, when he was on Havok's unofficial X-Men team in Astonishing X-Men. Most people were shocked by what Beast did in X-Force, because prior to X-Force, who really saw him attempting genocide and turning Wolverine into his slave?

Dany is the same: she had questionable moments, could be very vindictive, and had no problems killing her enemies in horrible and cruel ways. She often let her emotions get to her, and one of her prime emotions was anger. Even in the show, people recognized her potential danger if she didn't have her friends grounding her But overall, she was a well-meaning person who did a lot of good.

Beast's like Dany in a lot of ways, in that there were red flags in the past. They were very obviously good people, but had the potential to go down a dark path if they let their worst impulses guide them. But that doesn't mean they could just go from A to Z without first going through the rest of the alphabet.

This is absolutely my stance on how Percy and Marvel have handled this entire situation. The X-Office has saddled Hank's character with questionable and dark actions over the past 2 (or 3 depending on who you ask) decades but even right before Krakoa there were still very clear signs of a good person buried under the weight of his decisions. We can all argue about how much of the dark path "A-Z alphabet", to use Rift's analogy, Hank had gone through. But I think even the people who agree with this characterization would understand why some see that Percy's time with the character was an immediate, sudden bigger leap to get to the "Z" that bad Hank ended up at.

[DurararaFTW]

I dont see how its different. The genocide he committed in X-Force, he rationalized was for the greater good of Krakoa. Thats the problem with Beast. He did heinous things yet found a way to justify it and paint himself as the good guy. The ends justified the means has been his motto. Thats been a core characteristic of him for a while now

He didn't justify what happened in Astonishing X-Men or Secret Invasion. Cyclops did. What happened in New Avengers he could not justify either. He and the other Illuminati quit in response to Namor's action, and resigned to letting the Earth be destroyed at the next Incursion rather then be party to genocide in order to prevent it. They spent the next 8 months being willingly spared by the actions of Namor's Cabal, but this is equally true of every goverment and every character that Hickman featured in he "Time Runs Out" story, including every X-Men. In IvX he could not justify a genocidal war in mutantkind's defense and recommended a peaceful evacuation of the Earth instead, every other X-Men (save Rogue) felt the "well, they started it!" argument was well worth a genocide. The ends justify the means has been the motto of every characters in all these extinctions storylines at least as much as Beast, and in quite a few characters cases, far more so.

Beast's consistent trait that distinquishes him from others in these types of storylines is doing a lot more handwringing about it, until X-Force where he became the polar opposite seemingly overnight.

[Uncanny X-Man]

I dont feel like there was any build up to Dany's heel turn. The way she flipped in that final episode was so shockig and no one predicted that bc for 8 seasons the show was building her up as one of its two main protagonists and rightful heir to the throne. They wanted us to root for her and that was all thrown away in the span of 15 minutes.

Beast hasnt been a protagonist in a long while and in his fall from grace happened long before X-Force. Him being horrible here wasnt shocking to most people bc it fell in line with how he had already bee portrayed for years. It wasnt an abrupt character assassination like Dany, but one that had been gradually building up for quite some time

Daenerys' cruelty towards her enemies, lust for power and self-righteousness were right there from the start and absolutely count as build up. Tyrion's speech to Jon isn't making anything up, it's the execution that's lacking but I 1000% believe that was George RR Martin's plan all along and what he's eventually going to write in the books, although likely much better positioned.

[marhawkman]

Wasn't the point of Daenery's downfall that she was absolutely obsessed with gaining the power of her family back? She could have just walked away in many situations but she kept colonizing city after city after city with the only end goal to take over the country that had belonged "rightfully" to her family. Sounds pretty evil and obsessed to me,.....she could have just stayed in one of the citys she had taken over and become a "kind ruler" but her obsession and entitlement grew so much that in the end, she did whatever necessary to taken over the world. She became a ruler like anyone else but with better rhetoric of "just wanting to free the people" but not "free enough that they do not need her anymore". No, honey, you want to gain control over people.

She was at war and decided to destroy a city of people who did not had any intention to follow her "leadership". How can someone obsessed with power accept a kingdom that is not seeing her as a salvation? Only with violence, was the point the show tried to make. I think as a gender narrative, the early seasons made a great point that women in this world, can only be free by moving up. only on top is a certain autonomy for them possible. Hence, Daenery's action can only lead her up towards the throne because everything else would mean marginality.

I never really understand why people have been that surprised about her actions in the final season. The show maybe have rushed her development in the last episodes way to much. But what she did was indeed in line with her development in the entire show.

Nah, that's a slanted view. The part you left out is that it wasn't her personal ambition for the most part. It was the quest to de-throne the Lannisters. It wasn't just the Targaryens that had been wronged by the Lannisters. Dany was liberating people who had literally been enslaved by the Lannisters. Yeah she liberated peopel by killing those who served the Lannisters, but.... it wasn't just her own personal lust for power at work.

[ARkadelphia]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

[Exodus]

Nah, that's a slanted view. The part you left out is that it wasn't her personal ambition for the most part. It was the quest to de-throne the Lannisters. It wasn't just the Targaryens that had been wronged by the Lannisters. Dany was liberating people who had literally been enslaved by the Lannisters. Yeah she liberated peopel by killing those who served the Lannisters, but.... it wasn't just her own personal lust for power at work.

I think my argument still holds though. Maybe what she did before was more "righteous" but again, how can someone obsessed with power accept a kingdom that is not seeing her as a salvation? It was the first time in her journey to gain absolute power where civilians did not wanted to be freed by her...and her response was violence. It does make sense to me. I think her self-image was that of a "kind good ruler freeing the people" but the most important aspect of her character was her intention to achieve re-controlling her family's legacy. She shouted it several times throughout the series.

I think her white womanhood softened her aristocratic depotism but in the end, she was always just a white savior on a mission to gain power. Her absolute entitlement makes a very shitty person in the first place.

[marhawkman]

I think my argument still holds though. Maybe what she did before was more "righteous" but again, how can someone obsessed with power accept a kingdom that is not seeing her as a salvation? It was the first time in her journey to gain absolute power where civilians did not wanted to be freed by her...and her response was violence. It does make sense to me. I think her self-image was that of a "kind good ruler freeing the people" but the most important aspect of her character was her intention to achieve re-controlling her family's legacy. She shouted it several times throughout the series.

I think her white womanhood softened her aristocratic depotism but in the end, she was always just a white savior on a mission to gain power. Her absolute entitlement makes a very shitty person in the first place.

Well... let's look at it from another angle... or two actually, what would Jon Snow or Ned Stark have done in her place?

[ExodusCloak]

Beasts alignment with the inhumans was particularly dumb. He was able to show how the T-Cloud could be be contained in IvX 0 as he kept a sample of it in a container. However, the Inhumans preferred the cloud to roam and his solution was to get mutants to leave the planet and let the mist bond with the land, water and air making the planet forever uninhabitable to mutants.

That and he's on Genocide number 5 now?

1. Phalanx
2. Ghost Boxes
3. Secret Invasion: X-Men
4. Secret Avengers
5. Percys X-Force

I feel like I missed one.

[marhawkman]

technically #3 isn't genocide.... it's regular mass-murder.

[Gray Lensman]

Beasts alignment with the inhumans was particularly dumb. He was able to show how the T-Cloud could be be contained in IvX 0 as he kept a sample of it in a container. However, the Inhumans preferred the cloud to roam and his solution was to get mutants to leave the planet and let the mist bond with the land, water and air making the planet forever uninhabitable to mutants.

That and he's on Genocide number 5 now?

1. Phalanx
2. Ghost Boxes
3. Secret Invasion: X-Men
4. Secret Avengers
5. Percys X-Force

I feel like I missed one.

I wouldn't give him full "credit" from Secret Invasion. The Skrulls blew themselves up rather than surrender in exchange for the cure.

But Hank did risk the entire space time continuum because he was pissed at Scott, and blamed him for it. One feature of his slide was blaming others for what he did.