POLL: Should "The Dream" Come Back Post-Krakoa

[cranger]

but that's the point. Mutants have universal experiences across state lines. That's what the comics keep telling us. Either you believe it or you don't.



They are the smallest part of the mutant population. Why would they be included when they statistically don't amount to much? Let's be real for a minute if humans were just using their tech to fight back against supervillianwe wouldn't be having this discussion. They never stop. The x-men are there to stop supervillaians especially when humans can't.

The books do not tell us every mutant has the same experience, other than when there were 198 of them rounded up in a camp.

Also, the percentage number of 'humans' who hate and try to wipe out 'mutants' is probably statistically less than the other way around. While I do see examples of poor writing in recent years (and a huge offender on the main book right now) that narrate using that crutch, I think we as readers can do better and take one second to think about what the reality of the every day life is for many people in the MU and not rely on the shock value writing that has become common.

[Alan2099]

They are the smallest part of the mutant population. Why would they be included when they statistically don't amount to much? Let's be real for a minute if humans were just using their tech to fight back against supervillianwe wouldn't be having this discussion. They never stop. The x-men are there to stop supervillaians especially when humans can't.

And as far as human only fighting against supervillains... the Krakoan government was MOSTLY supervillains. Thew ISLAND they lived on was a supervillain. There have been cases where "one or two" mutants rewrote reality so mutants would rule over humanity with an iron grip. How many supervillains have to be in an organization before it's a supervillian organization?

If the Avengers consisted of Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Ultron, Bullseye, Carnage Mockingbird and Hawkeye, and went around talking about how they were superior to everyone andd nobody was allowed to do anything against them, would you consider that a team of heroes or villains?

[Rift]

And as far as human only fighting against supervillains... the Krakoan government was MOSTLY supervillains. Thew ISLAND they lived on was a supervillain. There have been cases where "one or two" mutants rewrote reality so mutants would rule over humanity with an iron grip. How many supervillains have to be in an organization before it's a supervillian organization?

If the Avengers consisted of Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Ultron, Bullseye, Carnage Mockingbird and Hawkeye, and went around talking about how they were superior to everyone andd nobody was allowed to do anything against them, would you consider that a team of heroes or villains?

I'd consider that Avengers team heroes... if they were sticking together for their own survival, gave people miracle medicine in exchange for their own security (and still slipped in the good stuff for people who needed it, because it's the nice thing to do), made it one of their biggest rules that they can't kill humans, spent much of their efforts fighting bad guys, worked in the interests of an oppressed group, and policed their own members if they stepped out of line and caused trouble.

With Krakoa, most of the villains were foiled by people within their ranks. Most of them made their moves AGAINST their own people and the Council. And much of that came during Fall of X, when Krakoa had fallen to outside forces. Many of the Quiet Council villains genuinely improved their behavior, or at least played nice enough to help things function. The island in question has been portrayed as consistently benevolent, or at least neutral, since the start of the era.

[H-E-D]

A big part of the establishing of Krakoa in HOXPOX was the reveal that the Dream, mutants coexisting with humans, as established for 60 years of X-Men history, was actually a lie: that the real plan all along was actually to create an immortal mutant nation with Magneto and Moira before the X-Men as a team were even first created, and that everything that had happened during the entire publication history of the franchise was actually just a stopgap to set things up for this mutant nation.

I disagree with this interpretation of HoXPoX

[OG Storm]

And as far as human only fighting against supervillains... the Krakoan government was MOSTLY supervillains. Thew ISLAND they lived on was a supervillain. There have been cases where "one or two" mutants rewrote reality so mutants would rule over humanity with an iron grip. How many supervillains have to be in an organization before it's a supervillian organization?

If the Avengers consisted of Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Ultron, Bullseye, Carnage Mockingbird and Hawkeye, and went around talking about how they were superior to everyone andd nobody was allowed to do anything against them, would you consider that a team of heroes or villains?

Those one of two mutants shouldn't be the litmus test on how to treat every mutant. The human examples you used do that all the time. I don't see anyone arguing about creating weapons to take out doom even though he has rewritten reality or stolen power from cosmic abstracts at least half a dozen times. He literally believes he's better than everyone. He's just a dangerous as any reality warper. Hell, he nearly destroyed the universe just to steal some of Dormamu's power.

The island was a hungry parasite. Human governments are run by human supervillains. In the comics Genosha, Russia.... have all been run by human autocratic that did evil things.

[BobbysWorld]

The books do not tell us every mutant has the same experience, other than when there were 198 of them rounded up in a camp.

Also, the percentage number of 'humans' who hate and try to wipe out 'mutants' is probably statistically less than the other way around. While I do see examples of poor writing in recent years (and a huge offender on the main book right now) that narrate using that crutch, I think we as readers can do better and take one second to think about what the reality of the every day life is for many people in the MU and not rely on the shock value writing that has become common.

Tell that to every mutant targeted by Orchis, regardless of whether they're Krakoan or not, or what countries and ethnicities they identify as.

Before it mutated at the VERY end of its existence, the Legacy Virus was a virus that only mutants had to worry about, and had nothing to do with where they were from or what they identified as.

M-Day hit the entire globe. The experiences of being depowered, and the experiences of remaining powered when the vast majority of mutants lost their powers, were not contingent on nationality or location.

The Terrigen Clouds traveling across the planet and their effects on mutants was again, a uniquely mutant experience that cared nothing for state lines.

Etc, etc.

Obviously NOBODY has the SAME experiences, no matter what they identify as, but people keep trying to say that mutants have no shared experiences at all, that are based on their identity as mutants specifically, and this has never been the case. The material is there. The material has been there for decades.

[OG Storm]

The books do not tell us every mutant has the same experience, other than when there were 198 of them rounded up in a camp.

Also, the percentage number of 'humans' who hate and try to wipe out 'mutants' is probably statistically less than the other way around. While I do see examples of poor writing in recent years (and a huge offender on the main book right now) that narrate using that crutch, I think we as readers can do better and take one second to think about what the reality of the every day life is for many people in the MU and not rely on the shock value writing that has become common.

It doesn't have to be every mutant has the same experience. It has to that mutants experience similar things across state lines and they do. That's not really up for debate as duggan's marauders run told us.

[JudicatorPrime]

Wait, you mean they weren't building towards an "Invading Mutants from Mars vs. the Earth!" 1950s-ish type sci-fi B-movie? Darn. I was looking forward to that.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Let's just be honest for a second. The dream failed mutants by every metric. It's designed to maintain a status quo of humans maintaining power to do what they want when they want. There are too many crazy humans out there that are willing to genocide mutants with the money and backing and super science to destroy them. It's not a fair fight for the average mutant. That doesn't even include the special ones. There has to be a new dream, one predicated on mutual equality much like threshold was.

By this characterization what's different from Threshold and the dream other than Threshold having long lives

[cranger]

Tell that to every mutant targeted by Orchis, regardless of whether they're Krakoan or not, or what countries and ethnicities they identify as.

Before it mutated at the VERY end of its existence, the Legacy Virus was a virus that only mutants had to worry about, and had nothing to do with where they were from or what they identified as.

M-Day hit the entire globe. The experiences of being depowered, and the experiences of remaining powered when the vast majority of mutants lost their powers, were not contingent on nationality or location.

The Terrigen Clouds traveling across the planet and their effects on mutants was again, a uniquely mutant experience that cared nothing for state lines.

Etc, etc.

Obviously NOBODY has the SAME experiences, no matter what they identify as, but people keep trying to say that mutants have no shared experiences at all, that are based on their identity as mutants specifically, and this has never been the case. The material is there. The material has been there for decades.

It doesn't have to be every mutant has the same experience. It has to that mutants experience similar things across state lines and they do. That's not really up for debate as duggan's marauders run told us.

I admit that I misunderstood the comment about 'universal'. I disagree with how much that matters compared to everything else any given person might have in common with any other given person, but I will accept the loss.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Again..a very different interpretation of what was actually written in the books.

And as I read through...I should have realised earlier that this is yet another "Krakoa is Doomed" thread...so I will not bother anymore.

FF/X-Men: the X-Men start a conflict that results in Valeria, Franklin, and the Marauders being kidnapped by Doctor Doom because the X-Men want them to turn Franklin over to Krakoa but won't let Franklins family visit. Several X-Men randomly try to kill the FF for trying to learn where their children are.

Children of the Atom: Storm gets into a confrontation with Captain America when he says the Children are in danger because they're too reckless, despite the fact that pages before the X-Men, including her, were saying the exact same things.

King in Black: Magneto and Xavier refuse to allow human civilians to use the gates to escape Knulls attack.

Savage Avengers: Threatened Doctor Strange when he was looking to recruit Magik for the Savage Avengers

And that's not even starting with X Force...

[Alan2099]

M-Day hit the entire globe. The experiences of being depowered, and the experiences of remaining powered when the vast majority of mutants lost their powers, were not contingent on nationality or location.

The Terrigen Clouds traveling across the planet and their effects on mutants was again, a uniquely mutant experience that cared nothing for state lines.

I always found the double standard here hilarious.

The X-men would risk the entire world because they wanted more people with powers, and when the Inhumans want the same thing, the X-men go out of their way to fight against them without even a hint of sympathy.

[OG Storm]

I always found the double standard here hilarious.

The X-men would risk the entire world because they wanted more people with powers, and when the Inhumans want the same thing, the X-men go out of their way to fight against them without even a hint of sympathy.

That's because the cloud would have wiped them out. The phoenix coming wasn't the same absolute certainty.

[OG Storm]

By this characterization what's different from Threshold and the dream other than Threshold having long lives

There was no preexisting human structures geared at maintaining power to harm everyone.

[ARkadelphia]

Nah after Krakoa The Dream is as dead as Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben… still alive and well

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