What's up with people being anti-Ventriloquist?

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Ever since Robinson killed off Wesker for no good reason, there has been a reaction against the character and a lot of criticism listing him as a lame character.

I can grant that it would be incredible hard to pull him in a movie, but I think even that could be achieved. Along with the some portrayals of the Mad Hatter, he is a symptom of how low has the Gotham underworld fallen. When one of the crime bosses in a big mobster war uses a freaking puppet as an avatar for his dual personality, it pretty much means havoc reigns.

The idea is not that bad, a criminal genius trapped in the body of a meek. He can be played for laughs or as a threat that at some point looks ridiculous.

One big problem I have seen with the character is that sometimes artists go too far with the puppet. The original was kinda odd, and the recent ones look too much like some cheap 80s horror movie. I think the first BTAS version was perfect and timeless.

[quinnzel]

I have personally always loved The Ventriloquist and Scarface and I think it's a shame that he's so under-used. He had his own criminal following in Broken City where he was actually the head honcho and Scarface was second-in-command. I've always thought the dynamic between Wesker and Scarface was really interesting and he's a character that can both command sympathy (his story in the Mad Love trade paperback, for instance) and be ruthless and evil. Plus, Scarface just lends himself to that old 1940s gangster atmosphere of Gotham.

[MajorHoy]

Plus, Scarface just lends himself to that old 1940s gangster atmosphere of Gotham.

I believe 1920s - 1930s would be a more appropriate time frame, with Prohibition and then the Great Depression.

1940s were framed more by WWII where, yeah, there were black markets on the homefront due to all the rationing shortages. But the heyday of guys like Dillinger (died 1934), Bonnie & Clyde (died 1934), Pretty Boy Floyd (also died 1934), Machine Gun Kelly (sentenced to prison 1933), Al Capone (in prison for much of the 1930s), etc. was before the 1940s.

[nepenthes]

I've seen more people call for Arnie to come back, if anything.

He was originally conceived by Alan Grant and as a Judge Dredd villain - and you can tell, he's gloriously deranged with a wry sense of the satirical that's common to Dredd foes but to Batman. I've always thought he'd be perfect for a more comic reverent film actually - would set the tone for Batman's world immediately and hilariously. After two hours of watching a schmuck with a puppet trip over his B and W's , you'll want Batman fly in and knock his teeth out!

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I've seen more people call for Arnie to come back, if anything.

He was originally conceived by Alan Grant and as a Judge Dredd villain - and you can tell, he's gloriously deranged with a wry sense of the satirical that's common to Dredd foes but to Batman. I've always thought he'd be perfect for a more comic reverent film actually - would set the tone for Batman's world immediately and hilariously. After two hours of watching a schmuck with a puppet trip over his B and W's , you'll want Batman fly in and knock his teeth out!

I was trying to address the "ventriloquist is lame" trend, which I have noted ever since they killed off Wesker. Hee are some examples:

http://io9.com/batmans-20-least-form...oes-1533476013
http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/06/...atman-villains

[NewMutant]

I think he is a great villain. There is something unique. I recently reread the Dini issues with Peyton which I still enjoyed.

[Nygma]

Part of it might be how the concept has been handled since Wesker's departure, combined with how odd it seems on a surface level. I was skeptical when I first heard about him, but having seen media (be it comics, B:TAS or fan films like Puppet Master) that handle him well there's a lot of value to the character. It's a very easy concept to do badly though

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Part of it might be how the concept has been handled since Wesker's departure, combined with how odd it seems on a surface level. I was skeptical when I first heard about him, but having seen media (be it comics, B:TAS or fan films like Puppet Master) that handle him well there's a lot of value to the character. It's a very easy concept to do badly though

One think I suspect is that he suffers a lot without Alan Grant. He created a lot of great characters that actually made sense for Arkham, some faded like Amygdala, Ratcatcher, Legs and Cornelius Stirk, and some remained relatively popular but suck under other writers, like the Ventriloquist, Zsasz, Tallyman and Anarky. The later two, have not even been the same incarnation. New writers don't really seem to read the source material.

[dancj]

I was trying to address the "ventriloquist is lame" trend, which I have noted ever since they killed off Wesker. Hee are some examples:

http://io9.com/batmans-20-least-form...oes-1533476013
http://www.ign.com/articles/2005/06/...atman-villains

IGN are good for one thing and one thing only - and that's giving away a free iPhone game every month.

Those two lists are the only times I've ever seen anyone criticise Wesker. Generally he gets a lot of love.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

IGN are good for one thing and one thing only - and that's giving away a free iPhone game every month.

Those two lists are the only times I've ever seen anyone criticise Wesker. Generally he gets a lot of love.

I think publishers need two kind of writers. Ok writers and excellent writers. Ideally, just the later, but since it's not likely to happen, avoiding the bad ones is good enough for now... The only problem with that is that only great writers set trends. With a reduced substance Ok writers will follow them, along with sales formulas and public opinion. Considering that DC was getting darker and darker back then, I think that kind of lame article only made things worse. Characters like the Ventriloquist, the Penguin and the Mad Hatter are dorks, there is no doubt about it, but only an infantile critic would think dorky is less dangerous. For instance, if Lord of the Rings proved something is that even losers like Gollum (think Cornelius Stirk) can be as much of a threat as Sauron (Darkseid) if they are well played. Since his conception, the whole point of the Penguin is that appearances are deceitful, which is why he is supposed to look odd, not monstrous. In this age of information, average writers should overcome the 90s Image standards, a villain is not better just because words like psycho, cyber, killer are thrown along a muscular or tough look.

[earl]

I can grant that it would be incredible hard to pull him in a movie, but I think even that could be achieved. Along with the some portrayals of the Mad Hatter, he is a symptom of how low has the Gotham underworld fallen. When one of the crime bosses in a big mobster war uses a freaking puppet as an avatar for his dual personality, it pretty much means havoc reigns.

The idea is not that bad, a criminal genius trapped in the body of a meek. He can be played for laughs or as a threat that at some point looks ridiculous.

There is one of those popular Batman fan films that used Scarface and Ventrioquist and it looked pretty good. The thing is to use Scarface and the dummy to be creepy and contrast with Wesker's personality. I think the character might be one of the best things he did with Batman. The villain always seemed like something you would see in an old 40s Batman comic with the 'evil' Charlie McCarthey, I could see Dick Sprang drawing such a character.

[EdwardNigma]

They need to bring back Arnold. He was great in BTAS.

What is a BIGGER crime is Zsasz. He was so great in his first appearance as this very intelligent serial killer. Instead they shaved his head and made him this weak guy whose only gimmick is he notches his skin when he kills.

[exile001]

Zsasz. He was so great in his first appearance as this very intelligent serial killer. Instead they shaved his head and made him this weak guy whose only gimmick is he notches his skin when he kills.

Couldn't agree more. Is it ironic that a decent serial-killer concept has been murdered by terrible writing?

[RubberLotus]

Couldn't agree more. Is it ironic that a decent serial-killer concept has been murdered by terrible writing?

To be fair, Alan Grant himself seemed to realize that Zsasz, as he was, could only put in a limited number of appearances. Make him too competent, and the screams of "WHY DOESN'T BATMAN JUST KILL THIS GUY?" will become ten times worse than the ones on Joker's head right now.

Recall that during Grant had a ten-year tenure on the Bat-books, and only wrote two Zsasz stories (plus a handful of cameos).

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

To be fair, Alan Grant himself seemed to realize that Zsasz, as he was, could only put in a limited number of appearances. Make him too competent, and the screams of "WHY DOESN'T BATMAN JUST KILL THIS GUY?" will become ten times worse than the ones on Joker's head right now.

Recall that during Grant had a ten-year tenure on the Bat-books, and only wrote two Zsasz stories (plus a handful of cameos).

We can say that people are at least trying. Maybe one they they will at least read the original stories.